Gave daughter 2 weeks to move out

Discussion in 'Substance Abuse' started by strangeworld, May 4, 2020.

  1. strangeworld

    strangeworld Member

    I have not been on here in a long time. I have been on a support group on Facebook which has been pretty good thought I might post here too. It's been 4 years I think since I found this website and unfortunately not much has changed. A lot has changed in our life - but not much with my daughter. She was 17 when I started posting here and now she is 21. I need to give an overview (sorry for the length) so you can sort of understand.

    At 14 she started cutting - at 15 diagnosed with anxiety and depression got on Antidepressants - at 16 continued spiraling did some therapy but not much - at 17 started cutting school and ended up dropping out of senior year with three months to go. It is during this time, at 17, that she met her current boyfriend who was a legal adult. He was 24. We had no idea. She was MIA, living at the park, then she finally started communicating so I would take her grocery shopping and I helped her get free phone, food stamps. Well, an incident in 2017 caused her to go to the hospital with her front tooth knocked out. She and her boyfriend had a fight and apparently (I don't really know the details because she won't say) he pushed her down. By now I already knew she was living with him in his state funded apartment for 1 (and they check regularly to make sure only the one tenant is there). They would fight about this because he didn't want to lose his apartment - and I don't blame him. He was trying to improve his life. My daughter started drinking heavily at 17 and when I got to the hospital, at 10 am, she was obviously highly intoxicated. She refused to let them give her an iv and caused such a scene...at the time we thought he was an abuser.

    He ended up getting a felony. He went to jail for 81 days. In the meantime, my daughter moved back home and went toothless for over a year. After he was out of jail she BEGGED me to take her to court to get the protective order removed. He complied with all his probation orders - including a 18 week anger management course. After all this time, and with her insisting that she wanted to be with him, we helped her to get the paperwork done and so they could be together again. Only now he lived at his parents and she lived with us.
    Fast forward to summer of 2018 and he had come over, we finally met him officially and we felt he was not a threat to her and in fact very mellow and sweet and patient. We know our daughter and know that SHE has been abusive to us in the past. Both my husband and I felt that the tooth incident was most likely not an abusive situation but a one time fight they had and both of them contributed. Maybe we made a mistake.
    In fall of 2018 our house burned down because of the Camp Fire in northern California and thankfully we were able to purchase a home in town (our burned house was 6.5 miles up in the canyon). Since then, our daughter and her boyfriend have been living here. He purchased a car, has tried to work but the hours were crazy overtime and graveyard shift he was not being paid for overtime so he quit, he was going to community college to become a mechanic (now with Coronavirus he's not attending...I don't really know what happened). All the while, my daughter does NOTHING. She drinks - binges and ABUSES him verbally. She will go a month or so and not drink (but obviously smokes weed) and her temper is non existent. Well, yesterday, after a few consecutive nights of her verbally and mentally abusing him (which my 17 year old son could hear) we finally have given them 2 weeks notice to move out. Should have done it a long time ago or never let them in in the first place.

    I had to text my daughter because of course her dad, my husband told her in the morning yesterday that we had some serious things to talk about, so I knew she wouldn't come home. I gave her our notice and she, as usual, blames us for everything in her life. Most of it I can take - I know I tried to be a good mother and my husband, while not perfect, tried to be a good father. We made mistakes as all parents do and possibly this child needed more than we knew at the time. She keeps bringing up the fact that her boyfriend almost broke her face. Every time I bring up something about her drinking and how she needs to get sober, she twists it all around and mentions this incident. I am really struggling now with guilt that we allowed her to see her boyfriend again after that incident (and his jail time) but she was 18 at the time. I was trying to help her and didn't want to push her away. What else were we supposed to do? She insisted on being with him so we decided to do the best we could and get to know him and try to help them get their lives in order. I even drove him to his anger management classes (which she should have been in) She will absolutely NOT help herself in any way shape or form and she uses this incident as ammunition to manipulate me and him. She suffers from depression - anxiety - and refuses to help herself. Won't even shower more than once every week or two. But has no problem riding her bike to the store for a giant bottle of vodka. by the way we gave her money to put in a bank account when we got our insurance payout for the house that burned. It was the only fair thing we could do since she lost everything in her room too. She is spending the money on booze and dope. She is absolutely out of control and regardless of the fight they had years ago, she is obviously the instigator of so much turmoil.

    He is completely manipulated by her. She will threaten to kill herself if he leaves and doesn't come back...that kind of thing. My son overheard her on the phone telling him she would drown herself in the creek if he didn't come back. That was the final straw. My 17 year old son, trying to do his schoolwork, now all online - needs peace in this home. So do we. On Christmas, when we had her grandparents here and aunt, she stayed in her room wailing away at him for who knows what during dinner. How outrageous - most parents would not even believe this kind of thing. He said he was going to his parents house and she threatened to leave and walk around town by herself in the dark.

    I am certain she is Borderline but she has not been officially diagnosed other than anxiety and depression. Her texts to me when I told her we are giving them 2 weeks to move out were just emotional manipulation. She said "why don't you get me on antidepressants"...what? She's 21 and I told her from now on she needs to make her own appointments. I have suffered PTSD from her antics and her disease and I have tried to help the best I could. Being in a car over and over taking your daughter to the therapist, the psychiatrist, to dentist appointments, to doctor appointments, to her continuation school, and NEVER any consideration for me. half the time screaming at me while I'm driving all because I said something contrary to what she believes. She is an abuser and a violent drunk and I am sad to say I hope she gets arrested and put in jail for a while to dry out. No thanks from her for allowing her and her boyfriend to live here, rent free for a year and a half. Eating our food, using our internet, air conditioning, heat, water. I love my daughter and I cannot believe she is so troubled. She only gets like this when we set a boundary - which is rarely. This one has to stick. If she helps herself we will help her and she knows that. There's money for school, rehab, to help with rent if she gets a job, help with groceries. I know it's exceptionally expensive where we live in California.

    I feel heartbroken, defeated and confused - I feel guilty and I don't think I should. I try to do self care but I am just consumed with her and I feel grief for not having the mother daughter relationship I want. She might end up living at the park again - and with this virus and everything else, it worries me. She has to grow up and whether she has the SEVERE mental illness called Borderline Personality Disorder or if she is an alcoholic, she needs to learn to help herself. I am done. Thanks if you made it to the end. I really needed to get that off my chest.
     
  2. RN0441

    RN0441 100% better than I was but not at 100% yet

    Welcome back.

    I do remember your name but forgot your story.

    I just wanted to respond to you and say that absolutely she needs to move out. She needs to hit rock bottom so she can crawl back up to the top and it sounds like everyone around her is enabling her.

    Not criticizing you, we've all done it!

    I'd imagine she is an alcoholic and that is why she seems to be mentally ill. That's usually the case isn't it? They are normal if they quit their "addiction". Or they may have some anxiety or depression or something like many many people.

    It's very sad, we don't want this for our kids. We hate to see them struggle.

    I've learned I cannot live my son's life for him. I still try to control everything (I am the adult daughter of an alcoholic and that is one of the side effects). I have to remind myself of that. It is so hard to let go.

    You cannot control your daughter's life but you can and you MUST control your life. Your son deserves a peaceful home.

    We sent our son away at 20 after many rehabs and him not changing and now he is much better. Once he realized we were DONE. Once I started to care about myself again and knew I had to stop the madness. He was not capable of stopping it.

    Nothing changes if nothing changes. All things I have learned here.

    I found a therapist that specialized in addiction. That was very helpful for me. I tried Al-anon but did not find comfort there as many others do. I also prayed for my son constantly. Night and day. My faith got me through it. Do whatever YOU need to do for YOURSELF and your family to survive this.

    Hugs and prayers and please keep us posted.
     
  3. BusynMember

    BusynMember Well-Known Member

    I also think she and boyfriend need to move out. Why is HE even there? I learned late (my daughter was 30) that it hurts them and us more than helps when we enable unacceptable behavior for any reason. Borderline is treatable withe dialectal behavioral therapy. Very effective. But it requires strong motivation and the willingness to go to therapy and do the homework given.

    Sometimes, in my case, I went against my husband to give Kay stuff because I thought it made her love me. It didn't but I was desperate. At least she would talk to me and call me if I offered her things. My husband and I almost divorced over this. Instead we got into counseling and joined Al Anon. Helped us be on the same page.

    Never think you can buy a kids love. Contact doesn't mean love. Since we quit buying Kay stuff we haven't heard from her. We also can't force them to take care of their problems. They will do what they do. In your case I fear there will be a child, like in our case, and Kay held that child from us for a long time until he became too much of a burden for her and her useless husband to raise. He is very damaged and delayed and throws fits.

    I hope you don't wait as long as we did to get it. Sending love and prayers
     
  4. Crayola13

    Crayola13 Active Member

    I don't blame you for giving them two weeks to leave. She sounds miserable living at hime, so maybe if she wasn't there, she would be better off. That is what you should tell her. If she threatens suicide, immediately call 911 and have her hospitalized. If she is just saying that to manipulate, eventually she will stop because she will get tired of being in the hospital.
     
  5. Copabanana

    Copabanana Well-Known Member

    I agree with the others and support you in your decision that they both leave. I agree that the situation is abusive. It's not helping her, him, and most of all, you, your husband and son. By her choices and behavior she is bringing everybody down to her level. She's living like an animal and forcing you' to live this way, with her.

    It's a blessing it has not been worse. Even more destructive and violent. I pray it does not worsen before she leaves. Based upon my experience getting them to leave is not necessarily cut and dry. My own son squatted on my property for a long time. I had to call the police repeatedly, get an order of trespass and I was on the brink of getting a restraining order.

    I would check into the legal requirements in your state to give notice. Even if they did not pay rent, they may have established legal tenancy. It would not hurt to look into it.

    Meanwhile there is the emotional cost to you of what you're going through which all of us understand and most of us have gone through. It sounds like you've got lots of experience and support through your history with the Facebook group. But have you thought about Al Anon too, for support, and for counsel?

    I think we as parents are unqualified to diagnose our children, especially if they're using heavily drugs and/or alcohol. Addiction to these substances can alter the brain, and this mimics mental illnesses. And addiction itself comes to dominate the personality and intrinsic motivation. In my own experience with addicts what happens is that the addiction comes to inhabit, dominate and overrule the personality of the user. Only if they become sober, and maintain it, does the real personality return.

    Which is to say that the personality elements that seem Borderline, may be the aspects of an addictive personality. Or, of course, she may have the Personality Disorder which is known as Borderline.

    Bottom line, she is an adult and her mental diagnoses, whatever they are, are her business and her responsibility. That's what I have come to in my own life. My son has a right to live as he wishes, to seek help or not. To degrade himself or not. What he has no right to do is to degrade me or to determine what my life is like or to bring down my household. To the extent that I allow that to happen, is on me.
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2020
  6. strangeworld

    strangeworld Member

    Thank you all so much for your replies and support.

    Legally they have tenants rights which here in CA is 60 days notice. Then the eviction process would begin if they did not leave (which would be $$ for us and an eviction on their record for them..well for her. He technically didn't live here but he did.). However violence is different but I don't know if that includes verbal...I think only physical. My daughter doesn't want to hurt us and we don't want to hurt her. I gave them two weeks but they came to retreive their necessities yesterday so they are ready to get out. I over heard him telling her how uncomfortable he was here. She said she was too but didn't want to go to his parent's house. If they end up on their own in an apartment and she continues drinking it is likely an incident will occur, cops will be called and one or both will go to jail and there will be another protective order. I will not help again in that aspect. After seeing first hand how they operate, it's clear their relationship is toxic. But it really seems like only toxic when she's drinking. They enjoy similar things, similar food, styles, or maybe it's the weed they enjoy and nothing else. I can't control who she picks for a partner. And I keep reminding myself that it's not my fault, that she is now an "adult".

    I have been to alanon. Unfortunately they are not having face to face meetings and recently the group on Facebook has removed all three of my recent posts because they felt it wasnt specific enough to Alanon...more venting. I actually feel quite annoyed by that as I specically tried to keep it less about the addict and more about me and my emotions over this (since alanon is all about learning to focus on ourselves and the steps.) Anyway, I do find it helpful and will probably start attending again when the meetings open up. Also therapy maybe.

    Today I have not cried...yet. My son has a friend over. I feel a bit more peaceful but I don't know where my daughter's and my relationship stands. I really wish they would have just moved on without us having to give the boot. It's ridiculous we waited this long snd kept hoping for change. And now it makes us the "bad guy" when really we gave them shelter and food and security for a year and a half...he was easy to
    have around because he was helpful. And he was not upset about them leaving...but my daughter....her comfort zone is gone.

    I am not sure she has Borderline (BPD), and I totally agree that until someone is completely sober for a while, no diagnosis should be considered accurate or final. Psychiatry is always changing too. They used to think Borderline (BPD) was caused by the mother...then only abuse, now they know much of it is an innate temperament combined with an invalidating environment. The only reason for a diagnosis is for the treatment. But the signs and symptoms have been there since around 14, before alcohol and drugs.
     
  7. Copabanana

    Copabanana Well-Known Member

    I think even if somebody is not technically a resident, if they have resided there for a period of time, even without paying rent, they may be considered a resident. I hope it doesn't come to your needing to take legal action but if you have to, I would serve him too.
    I am in CA too. I understand that violence can lead to getting a restraining order, and I think there (but I am not an attorney) it's 3 days, but if there is imminent violence, involving the police, it's immediate.
    Good.
    I think that adolescence is a special case. Because of hormones and because the brain has matured, I think mental health practitioners are careful to not prematurely diagnose based upon behaviors that could or could not be transient and related to the maturation process.

    I think you're doing incredibly well, and being incredibly strong in a very, very difficult and painful situation. I'm glad you're here.
     
  8. JayPee

    JayPee Sending good vibes...

    SW,
    It's definitely difficult for us to accept our children and all their "brokenness". Our hearts ache to have a relationship that has equal respect and good communication.

    It's important to release the tension in your forehead, release your clenched jaws, the knots in your neck, take a deep breath and surrender yourself and your daughter to God....over and over and over again so that through this ordeal both you and your daughter can have some hope for healing.

    Sending prayers
     
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  9. strangeworld

    strangeworld Member

    Thanks again for wisdom and support. She called yesterday saung she wants to pick up some of her things. Ok. Calls back crying I can't understand her and I got frustrated and yelled "I can't understand what you are saying" she hung up and I called back apologizing for yelling. She started texting...you know how it goes. My husband gotm on the phone with her boyfriend and he said she bought a half gallon of vodka that morning.

    I sent her a text stating that until she goes to detox/rehab/dual diagnosis department at the hospital (5 blocks away...she can walk), I do not want contact. Insurance will pay. Then starts the texts about the whole reason she is this way is basically I was never there for her as a kid and the last three years have been traumatizing because of 1: her cat died. 2: the domestic violence incident that happened where he pushed her and she lost her tooth 3: the wild fire that burned down our house..she was there alone for a while but I had called a neighbor who went over to reassure her she would have a way out if her dad didn't get there in time. Yes its is all traumatizing. I never minimized it. The dv incident...I would never have helped her to get the protective order removed if she hadn't begged me and led me to believe it was partially her fault what happened. She was off the deep end long before these incidents. The guilting me is making me sick. I was there for her as a kid...always. At puberty, she became withdrawn and it was very hard to talk to her. We thought it was teen phase. So basically it doesn't even matter of I was a good enough mom and did my best, she perceives it as all my fault and that's her reality. I blocked her because she just won't stop lashing out. So because she thinks of herself as a victim, she should never have to deal with life and we should all just accept her belligerent behavior.
     
  10. Copabanana

    Copabanana Well-Known Member

    Hi strangeworld (I am a cat lover and artist, too.) Look. She has a right to think whatever she wants about her life. And she can tell anybody else she wants, if she chooses too. What she can't do, unless you permit this, is to torture you. While you don't have to, you are consenting to listen to this:
    Only you can protect you. Only you can decide that you don't deserve to be sick:
    She guilts you because you choose to engage with her. When you decide you will no longer permit this, it will stop. Because you will do whatever it takes to stop it. Until then, she will do it. Whether it hurts you or not, she will do it. No matter how wrong it is.
    The same thing with this. She has every right in the world to interpret her life in the way that she chooses. She can play whatever role she chooses, including victim, or perpetrator for that matter.

    My commentary about my son and his life is my business. I can say what I want but I have no sway, or rights about what he does, what he says, what he thinks, or how he acts. I control only what I permit near me.

    Your daughter is a certain way, because she is choosing it. Like with my own son, she may choose it for the rest of her life. Or not. But that is up to her.

    It will be very sad for me if my son chooses to keep his life as it is for the rest of my own life. But I will have every opportunity to adjust my behavior, my attitudes, my thinking and my choices, to make that reality more bearable. For me. Not him. I will also have every right (and obligation) to limit my contact with my son if I find it disturbing or hurtful.

    I see your range of choices regarding your daughter as very similar to my own range of choices about my son. And that range of choices involves setting limits about how close they are to us. It also involves setting internal limits inside of myself, so that I accept that I am dealing with another adult here, over whom I have no responsibility or control. With that comes the responsibility to myself to deal with myself, independent of him. To learn to be a healthy, happy, centered, tranquil, accomplished, contented person in myself. And to let him be.
     
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    Last edited: May 9, 2020
  11. strangeworld

    strangeworld Member

    I agree Copa, I just don't know how to get to that point. It is going to take some intense therapy or maybe just a strong belief that I am doing the right thing will be enough. I have set my limits and unfortunately she probably perceives them as abandonment. You are right that she has every right to believe and feel the way she does. I'm sorry your son is similar. But it sounds like you are able to find peace. I hope to get there too.
     
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  12. Copabanana

    Copabanana Well-Known Member

    Dear Strangeword: While therapy has it's positive aspects, and it may be a strong support for you, I don't think arriving to this "point" has anything to do with the need to do anything intensely or even to feel or believe something strongly.

    I think we always will feel some ambivalence. I think I will always be vulnerable at moments. I believe I will always have moments of regret and even of self-doubt.

    What I think is this: We arrive to accept that we have free choice and personal responsibility. And so do our children. And we choose one time, to act based upon that. That we alone are responsible to have the life we want and need. But first it begins with today, this minute. And we do what we need to do today, this minute.

    And then again, and again and again, we act from this place. From free choice and from personal responsibility. And yes, in this way we do the right thing for our child. Because as long as we stay enmeshed with them, there is no way that that supports them to act on their own behalf from free choice and personal responsibility. Should we begin to choose to distance ourselves from their maladaptive behavior what happens is that we give these adults the opportunity to begin to do the same thing for themselves; to take steps to have a free life.
    Who cares? She may or she may not. She may have learned that you respond in the way she wants, if she says she feels abandoned by you. This is manipulating. And it is gaslighting. You can choose to stay focused upon what is the best thing for her, and for you. And the best thing is not based upon feelings, either hers or yours. The best thing is based upon thinking and considered decisions made about personal welfare and the welfare of others.
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2020
  13. RN0441

    RN0441 100% better than I was but not at 100% yet

    When people/our kids etc. are either using drugs or alcohol or are mentally ill, they have a skewed view of the world, of us, of parent/child relationships, of everything.

    We cannot begin to make sense of it because it doesn't make sense and won't ever make sense.

    The skewed view keeps everything from being normal or making sense and I think it pushes us to the verge of a breakdown before we can start the upward journey to our new normal.
     
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  14. Copabanana

    Copabanana Well-Known Member

    If we can grasp this basic truth there is the potential to have some peace in ourselves and in our lives.

    When our children are in the place, that has brought us all here, their lives are in chaos and our lives, too, as long as we are struggling to help them resolve the contradictions and confusion that are causing us and them such pain.

    The thing is, as RN writes, these conflicts and contradictions cannot be reconciled. By us. The wrinkles can't be ironed out, because they're coming from something deep inside our kids, that only they can resolve.

    When they are distressed and in trouble, we keep straightening out the troubling circumstances, and they keep creating new ones. We keep inventing new words and new deeds to see if these will help, because nothing else we've tried, has worked, thus far. But every iteration of new words, new deeds, by us, fails anew, leading usually, to greater confusion and pain.

    The cure for us is to realize that our efforts to un-wrinkle our kids, is a compulsion. We have become dis-eased, too. The treatment for us is to remove ourselves to one degree or another from our children, who trigger our dis-ease. There is no other way, in my experience.

    Instead, we keep applying "treatments" to them. And none of them work. We need to begin to apply the treatments to ourselves. And to remove ourselves from the contagion that they've introduced in our lives. Only then will our suffering recede and remit.

    I wish to G-d there was another way. For me, I have not found it.
     
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  15. strangeworld

    strangeworld Member

    I guess the reason for my comment about her feeling anandoned is because that is the crux of the Borderline disorder. And the way they treat it is with Dialectical Behavioral Therapy which focuses of validating feelings whether substantiated in reality or drafted out of warped perception. While she has not been diagnosed officially, every single symptpm she has. So i feel like if I disengage from her life it might make the situation worse. The last thing I want to do is make her worse. But honestly, this is the only thing I can do right now that makes sense. If she has Borderline (BPD) it can't be treated correctly if she's high or drunk. And I can't have a drunken belligerent person in my home

    The weight has started lifting but every so often I feel grief seeping in. I know this is normal. The PTSD that ignites when she texts is something I hope will fade in time.

    The longer I live the more I realize nothing is permanent. Even if things start getting better, there are no guarantees they will continue for ever. I think when we are young we think there is a point when all will be stable and we work toward that. Then the older I get I realize that point does not exist and we really only have this bumpy path that takes us to places good and bad. If I could learn to accept that things change for the better and worse all throughout life maybe I could find peace.

    Again thank you all. I really take in your guidance and support sometimes reading your replies over and over. The wisdom here is very helpful and calming for me. Prayers for all of our children struggling. And us.
     
  16. Copabanana

    Copabanana Well-Known Member

    It could.

    Most of us struggle with some form of this. But eventually none of us will be here. Our adult children will have to navigate the world without us.

    The decision I have made is to support my son to engage in life, without me as a buffer or guide. When I tried to be the buffer/guide I ended up battered and bruised. I was not supporting autonomy, integrity or productivity as I had hoped. He ended up in worse shape as he was able to see life as alternating between resistance and dependence.
    I went to AA for awhile to learn about the 12 step way of living. I was so amazed at the people who had lived their lives as "borderline" while drunk and drugged, and who found through 12 step programs, order, integrity, accountability and stability, and so much else.

    My take is that life often involves very elementary and binary choices, between right and wrong.

    I find when I look at life this way I have the information I need to take the next step. To me, there is always a better thing to do. Do I lay in bed amidst clutter, or do I get up and wash the dishes, sweep the floor and clean the counters? Do I feel sorry for myself, or do I go outside and feed the stray cat or go for a walk?

    I don't think it's different for our kids. There are first steps that they can make. Or not. When I took responsibility for pushing my son, deciding for him, insulating him I robbed him of the opportunity to develop the muscle to better live life. When I took on the consequences, I robbed him of the best teacher there is. When I pushed him, I took away the incentive for him to find and to use his own motivation.

    That's just my take. The way I understand it all now.
     
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    Last edited: May 9, 2020
  17. DoneDad

    DoneDad Active Member

    As a former difficult child myself, I made the choice to “walk the straight and narrow path.” If our kids don’t make that choice for themselves, there’s not a damn thing we can do to help them.
     
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  18. WhyDoWeFallBruce?

    WhyDoWeFallBruce? New Member

    I completely get that you´re having those feelings. Like Copa says, we all do. The other day I spoke to my son and realized that he has relapsed. I can hear of course it from a mile away on the phone. I feel sad for him and want the best, but I keep telling him that the choice is his. I cannot and WILL not make it for him. So I´m with DoneDad on this one. Stay strong and stand by your decision.
     
  19. JMom

    JMom Active Member

    Strangeworld,

    I am sorry that you are feeling uneasy. I think you have done a good thing by asking them to leave. Your daughter will figure it out/or not on her own. Someone earlier said to do the next best thing...take a walk vs. feeling stuck in guilt.

    I agree 100%, keep it moving, stay busy, slow your thoughts down and care for yourself. I think she may thrive once everyone (boyfriend included) leaves her to her own choices/consequences. She has a band of people caring for her and she is abusive to everyone. I know you love her, but you can love her in a different space. She has to figure this out-you won't be there forever to help her.

    I also agree with the comment to call the police if she threatens suicide. A 72 hour hold could be a starting point for sobriety or mental healthcare,

    Hugs,
    JMOM