Have i done the right thing?

[MandaC]

Hi. Im new to this. I dont know if iv done the right thing. Looking for some support.
Last Wednesday, my 23 year old son was released on bail from remand. He had stopped speaking to me , his Dad and had infact cut everyone from his life 3 months before going to prison. I do know he was abusing alcohol at this point and his mental health was poor. But a month before being released , he wrote me a letter saying how sorry he was and that he loved me and and could i come and visit him which i did and thought we were going to rebuild our relationship once he was released and hed get help fir his mental health which so far he has refused to do.
Has anyone ever experienced this and is it a sign of ASBD? Leading up to my son cutting us all out of his life , he gradually, even if he requested our company, stopped conversation with us. I could drive him a car journey that lasted an hour and he wouldnt speak. No general conversation and also when i tried to speak , hed answer a word one answer, quick as a flash as if to cut me off/shut me up. He did it with his Dad also. On visiting him in prison , it was much of the same. Mabey not quite as bad but still very little conversation.
Back to the present....he turned up at my door last Wed after being released. I told him he could stay until he sorted out miney, a job, flat etc. But from the word go, silence, no conversation. I bought him things, took him out to eat, tried to help him but still he wouldnt speak to me. By Sat i snapped. I couldnt take any more of the silent treatment. I got upset and i actually saw a smirk from him when i was getting upset. He said he would go and get a place in the homeless unit, which he did. However he returned later that day, didnt apoligize but for a short period acted a little more pleasant so i let him sit in my house in the agreement that he went back to the homeless unit to sleep. If im honest, he was making me feel nervous and stressed in my own house so i was glad he had a place in the homeless unit. Sunday, yesterday, he came to my house again. More of the silent treatment. When i was driving him back to the homeless last night, i asked him why he wouldnt speak to me. He started shouting, going off his head , calling me names. I stopped the car and told him to get out which he did , slamming the car door behind him. I went home and i sent him a message telling him not to come near me again , that i couldnt cope with his behaviour any more and the silent treatment, the using me , the worry that hel do somethinf and end up back in prison. I just cant do it anymore. I should add that hes been in and out of prison since he was 18 and all for violent crimes. One if those crimes was threatning me with a knife while high on drugs. I still tried to help and support him despite this.
Im not sure now if the silent treatment is deliberate, like a punishment of some kind, if hes a narcissist or if he has ASBD or what. And even though i know i cant cope with him anymore , i now feel terrible that iv told him not to come near me again. He hasnt replied to my message. Im so worried. Any advice would be appreciated.

 

[ksm]

I'm so sorry. I think you did the right thing. Of course, a parent always wonders if they could have done more. Does he have a probation officer? Did he use your address for the court? Do you think you should contact his PO? Get a no contact order?

When you talked about him smirking... it brought back memories of behavior with my adopted grands. They would escalate behavior, loud, out of control, push all my buttons, and when I finally lose it, they would suddenly be smug and calm down. Like they accomplished what they wanted to achieve. It's enough to make one crazy.

Do you think he's back on drugs? What was his drug of choice?

Wish I had more to offer than just empathy...but I know and feel your pain. Ksm

 

[Deni D]

MandaC, I'm also sorry you are going through this. It's a terrible place to be. It's obvious you can't have him living with you. There's nothing different that would tell you he's any less volatile than he's been in the past.

I can't speak for what goes on in your son's head with his behaviors, the silent treatment, the smirking when he's able to push you over the edge and the blowing up. But when my son was doing these things to me, on the regular, it was because he was very angry with me over his life choices that got him where he was. The silent treatment was him biting his tongue, feeling like he had to deal with me, but didn't want to. The calm smirking after getting me to lose it was bone chilling and did have me thinking he was too far gone to ever act like a human again. He had no insight, was busy trying to normalize abnormal behaviors' and was just plain immature. He felt I caused his problems because I didn't accept him as he was and take care of him, regardless of what he did or didn't do. He thought unconditional love was me doing whatever he wanted, in the moment. He was unstable, unmedicated, drinking and drugging. I kind of boil it down to an ego thing, young person trying to be an adult with no idea what being an adult means. He's much better now but still a work in progress, I imagine he always will be, just like we are with whatever challenges we have.

In my case I went around in circles trying to help and then giving up, for 10 years. One thing I have figured out is that we can't get through to anyone who isn't looking for actual advice and support from us. Especially if the person see's us as the problem. Who's going to listen to the problem for support and solutions? It was other people, other experiences where my son didn't have a history with people where he was able to change, start to get stable, get a life and mature little by little. To this day the most I've gotten as far as an apology has been "sorry I was an mom" which of course is fine.

Don't feel bad about telling him to not to come near you again. You are human, you are a mom, not a therapist dealing with a difficult person one hour a week in a controlled environment.

I'm thinking for you this might be a good time to get real clear on what you will and won't do for him. So you don't feel guilty and cave when he comes asking. For example I provided uber rides back and forth to doctors, paid the out of pocket expenses for doctors and prescriptions, things like that, no cash. For things like food I pointed my son to the food banks near him. Much later on when my son was stable and getting his life back together I helped him buy a car. But that was when I was sure the car wasn't going to be used like a clown car as he had done years before when he was unstable.

This is a place where you can gain your footing back and bring some sanity back into your life. Here is where I learned people do deal with our type of situations and survive. I had to learn to survive and step back long before anything positive happened with my son. And I had to learn that what I do for me to survive is only for me, what my son, another adult, chooses to do or not is his business.

Hang in there.

 

[MandaC]

Thanks. Its good just to hear even that other people have gone through/ going through similar experience.

 

[MandaC]

And i do think you might be right about the silent treatment being like him biting his tounge. Like if he doesnt get in to conversation with me then he wont lose it and say what he Really wants to say.

 

[laugh]

Amanda - Thanks for your bravery. I believe you've taken the right action. Give yourself some time before reaching out to him again - he may contact you first. This isn't likely the end of your relationship but give him some space to think. At this point, he may need time to consider both his own actions as well as his relationship with you both.

You asked if his behaviour might suggest an Antisocial Personality Disorder, which are typically characterized by anti-social behaviour, manipulative conduct, lack of remorse. It's possible, but Deni's suggestion is likely more credible. His behaviour toward you seems more of an attempt at 'transference'. He may be ashamed of his behaviour both toward himself and you and tries to transfer some of that blame onto his mother. He sounds conflicted and demonstrates an inability to articulate his anger - silent treatment followed by rage. Although he's 23, he still demonstrates childlike behaviour around you - smirking when he's managed to get you to break the silence.

His volunteering to attend a homeless shelter and leave you alone doesn't suggest someone afflicted by an Antisocial Personality Disorder. He doesn't gain from this arrangement. Indeed, it seems an emotionally rationale response. It's possible he feels guilt and does not know how to deal with you; he also may believe that you are ashamed of him. When adult children feel they haven't met their parents' expectations, they can exhibit childlike behaviour in response. Did that smirk, tantrum and silent treatment remind you of his boyhood?

When the time comes, try a different strategy. Don't confront. Per Deni's comments, set some boundaries and don't react until they're reached. If he tries a silent treatment, just let it go. Try to 'reward' any positive behaviour and avoid negative comments. If he takes the dishes back to the counter, acknowledge it. If he talks about finding a job, let him know you're proud. If you provide him with the environment to be malleable, he might begin to shift. He's spent years building rules around his relationship with you (ignoring, begging for you, coming to you, silence), it'll be him that will have to initiate the change in the rules going forward.

 

[mindinggaps]

@MandaC I think the advice and guidance you have received from both @Deni D and @laugh is superb.

You asked if his behaviour might suggest an Antisocial Personality Disorder, which are typically characterized by anti-social behaviour, manipulative conduct, lack of remorse. It's possible, but Deni's suggestion is likely more credible. His behaviour toward you seems more of an attempt at 'transference'. He may be ashamed of his behaviour both toward himself and you and tries to transfer some of that blame onto his mother. He sounds conflicted and demonstrates an inability to articulate his anger - silent treatment followed by rage. Although he's 23, he still demonstrates childlike behaviour around you - smirking when he's managed to get you to break the silence.

In particular, this analysis is very interesting. However, one thing that I think must be emphasized is regardless of the background, his behaviour is certainly consistent with some untreated mental illness. Speaking from direct experience as someone who has exhibited similar behaviours, it may be very hard for you to make progress unless he is treated properly. As Deni said, you are not a caregiver or therapist and at this stage and it is reasonable to set boundaries saying you cannot support him unless he is getting treatment. You can of course support this process by giving rides, finding doctors, and encouraging the use of mental health supports. But if he is unstable, any form of forward progress will be challenging.

 

[MandaC]

@MandaC I think the advice and guidance you have received from both @Deni D and @laugh is superb.


In particular, this analysis is very interesting. However, one thing that I think must be emphasized is regardless of the background, his behaviour is certainly consistent with some untreated mental illness. Speaking from direct experience as someone who has exhibited similar behaviours, it may be very hard for you to make progress unless he is treated properly. As Deni said, you are not a caregiver or therapist and at this stage and it is reasonable to set boundaries saying you cannot support him unless he is getting treatment. You can of course support this process by giving rides, finding doctors, and encouraging the use of mental health supports. But if he is unstable, any form of forward progress will be challenging.

I agree. Which is why i am at a loss now as to what to do. He refuses point blank to seek treatment. He cant be happy so why does he not want to seek help and get better?

Amanda - Thanks for your bravery. I believe you've taken the right action. Give yourself some time before reaching out to him again - he may contact you first. This isn't likely the end of your relationship but give him some space to think. At this point, he may need time to consider both his own actions as well as his relationship with you both.

You asked if his behaviour might suggest an Antisocial Personality Disorder, which are typically characterized by anti-social behaviour, manipulative conduct, lack of remorse. It's possible, but Deni's suggestion is likely more credible. His behaviour toward you seems more of an attempt at 'transference'. He may be ashamed of his behaviour both toward himself and you and tries to transfer some of that blame onto his mother. He sounds conflicted and demonstrates an inability to articulate his anger - silent treatment followed by rage. Although he's 23, he still demonstrates childlike behaviour around you - smirking when he's managed to get you to break the silence.

His volunteering to attend a homeless shelter and leave you alone doesn't suggest someone afflicted by an Antisocial Personality Disorder. He doesn't gain from this arrangement. Indeed, it seems an emotionally rationale response. It's possible he feels guilt and does not know how to deal with you; he also may believe that you are ashamed of him. When adult children feel they haven't met their parents' expectations, they can exhibit childlike behaviour in response. Did that smirk, tantrum and silent treatment remind you of his boyhood?

When the time comes, try a different strategy. Don't confront. Per Deni's comments, set some boundaries and don't react until they're reached. If he tries a silent treatment, just let it go. Try to 'reward' any positive behaviour and avoid negative comments. If he takes the dishes back to the counter, acknowledge it. If he talks about finding a job, let him know you're proud. If you provide him with the environment to be malleable, he might begin to shift. He's spent years building rules around his relationship with you (ignoring, begging for you, coming to you, silence), it'll be him that will have to initiate the change in the rules going forward.

 

[mindinggaps]

@MandaC This is an incredibly difficult situation which is very hard to deal with. On some level, I believe there is little you can do. Your son is an adult and is ultimately responsible to making his own decisions. You can encourage him to seek treatment and support the process, but you certainly cannot force it upon him. I know many parents here have been in this predicament and they may have insight into how you can manage it while taking care of yourself and having boundaries.

He cant be happy so why does he not want to seek help and get better?

I did want to provide some insight here. It can be very difficult to understand but refusing to seek help can sometimes be a symptom of the mental illness. Many with issues do not want to get better and this is because their brain is not operating properly. They also cannot recognize they are ill and that their behaviour is off. As an outsider it is very easy to look and say they need help, but it may not be obvious to him. He will require medications and he may be very resistant to this...it is a very common problem and one which is deeply hard to resolve.

 

[Copabanana]

I should add that hes been in and out of prison since he was 18 and all for violent crimes. One if those crimes was threatning me with a knife while high on drugs.

I think when it gets to this point there needs to be no contact except if somebody else is with you. Even if they're high they need to be held responsible for their behavior.

if hes a narcissist or if he has ASBD or what.

I don't think a diagnosis is important. Psychologists now are steering away from using these personality or characterological labels and they are not used by many. More to the point the focus has to be on you, not him. Your safety comes first. Your emotional well-being is just as important.

Clearly, the way he is acting towards you is toxic. It is unsettling, disrespectful, and counter-productive to communication and connection. He is responsible, not you, Why he does it is secondary. Its effects on you are primary. My message to you is to focus on the effects of his actions on you. And to take seriously his past actions and potential to repeat them.

All the emotions you feel, the guilt, fear, etc. what we call FOG, (fear, obligation, and guilt) are just noise. If we act on the basis of these feelings we go further down a black hole, and we act to empower the worst aspects of our children's behavior. How is it that the emotions that overcome us, our reactivity should govern our choices and actions? They shouldn't. This is not a judgment. Rather, if our children are acting badly we need to be motivated by clarity, goals, and responsibility to ourselves and to what is right: right for us, and for them. The right thing for our children is strict and clear boundaries and self-responsibility, if they are adults, for their own upkeep, and for the consequences of what they do. That's what I think.

 

[MandaC]

I think when it gets to this point there needs to be no contact except if somebody else is with you. Even if they're high they need to be held responsible for their behavior.

I don't think a diagnosis is important. Psychologists now are steering away from using these personality or characterological labels and they are not used by many. More to the point the focus has to be on you, not him. Your safety comes first. Your emotional well-being is just as important.

Clearly, the way he is acting towards you is toxic. It is unsettling, disrespectful, and counter-productive to communication and connection. He is responsible, not you, Why he does it is secondary. Its effects on you are primary. My message to you is to focus on the effects of his actions on you. And to take seriously his past actions and potential to repeat them.

All the emotions you feel, the guilt, fear, etc. what we call FOG, (fear, obligation, and guilt) are just noise. If we act on the basis of these feelings we go further down a black hole, and we act to empower the worst aspects of our children's behavior. How is it that the emotions that overcome us, our reactivity should govern our choices and actions? They shouldn't. This is not a judgment. Rather, if our children are acting badly we need to be motivated by clarity, goals, and responsibility to ourselves and to what is right: right for us, and for them. The right thing for our children is strict and clear boundaries and self-responsibility, if they are adults, for their own upkeep, and for the consequences of what they do. That's what I think.

Thankyou. I think that is good advice.

 

[Copabanana]

Which is why i am at a loss now as to what to do. He refuses point blank to seek treatment. He cant be happy so why does he not want to seek help and get better?

I don't think there are answers to your questions. That will help us. I ask them too. I beg my son to go to treatment. To get a neuropsychological exam. What will it change? Nothing. He needs to want answers. He needs to want change.

The more I ask these questions, the more desperate I get. It is what it is. We cannot locate our well-being in our children's lives. Period.

We just can't. It doesn't help us. It does not help them. The only answer is that he may change or he may not. The whys are unknowable. We can come up with diagnoses; we can talk about lack of insight being a symptoms of the mental illness itself; we can talk about motivation and personality dynamics.

These are answers. But What do they really help and what do they tell us? Until he asks the questions. Until he is uncomfortable enough to find the answers. What does it all mean and what will it help? Not one whit.

There is one thing and one thing only for a mother to do. Let it be. Find a way to locate your well-being in yourself. Find a way to accept what is, uncritically, without defensiveness. To accept reality right now and to deal with it. It won't mean it can't change. But the locus of change, the motivation for change is not in us. It's in them. The thing is, the only reality you have control over is your own reality. You can change that. So can I. Our kids are responsible for their own lives.

 

[MandaC]

I don't think there are answers to your questions. That will help us. I ask them too. I beg my son to go to treatment. To get a neuropsychological exam. What will it change? Nothing. He needs to want answers. He needs to want change.

The more I ask these questions, the more desperate I get. It is what it is. We cannot locate our well-being in our children's lives. Period.

We just can't. It doesn't help us. It does not help them. The only answer is that he may change or he may not. The whys are unknowable. We can come up with diagnoses; we can talk about lack of insight being a symptoms of the mental illness itself; we can talk about motivation and personality dynamics.

These are answers. But What do they really help and what do they tell us? Until he asks the questions. Until he is uncomfortable enough to find the answers. What does it all mean and what will it help? Not one whit.

There is one thing and one thing only for a mother to do. Let it be. Find a way to locate your well-being in yourself. Find a way to accept what is, uncritically, without defensiveness. To accept reality right now and to deal with it. It won't mean it can't change. But the locus of change, the motivation for change is not in us. It's in them. The thing is, the only reality you have control over is your own reality. You can change that. So can I. Our kids are responsible for their own lives.

Thanks. That makes sense.

 

[Fairy dust]

I don't think there are answers to your questions. That will help us. I ask them too. I beg my son to go to treatment. To get a neuropsychological exam. What will it change? Nothing. He needs to want answers. He needs to want change.

The more I ask these questions, the more desperate I get. It is what it is. We cannot locate our well-being in our children's lives. Period.

We just can't. It doesn't help us. It does not help them. The only answer is that he may change or he may not. The whys are unknowable. We can come up with diagnoses; we can talk about lack of insight being a symptoms of the mental illness itself; we can talk about motivation and personality dynamics.

These are answers. But What do they really help and what do they tell us? Until he asks the questions. Until he is uncomfortable enough to find the answers. What does it all mean and what will it help? Not one whit.

There is one thing and one thing only for a mother to do. Let it be. Find a way to locate your well-being in yourself. Find a way to accept what is, uncritically, without defensiveness. To accept reality right now and to deal with it. It won't mean it can't change. But the locus of change, the motivation for change is not in us. It's in them. The thing is, the only reality you have control over is your own reality. You can change that. So can I. Our kids are responsible for their own lives.

 

[Fairy dust]

your answer Copa so perfectly makes sense. I think every day we just need to recenter our thoughts and focus on our own well being and the reactions we have to the ongoing madness. in the end we really don’t have any control. Hugs to all.

 

[mindinggaps]

I don't think there are answers to your questions. That will help us. I ask them too. I beg my son to go to treatment. To get a neuropsychological exam. What will it change? Nothing. He needs to want answers. He needs to want change.

Our kids are responsible for their own lives.

@Copabanana As always, I find your posts deeply insightful and I just wanted to chime in to say that I fully agree with the advice you've provided. Of course, I say this from the other side of the equation, as someone formerly diagnosed with ODD who needs ongoing treatment to remain healthy. The desire to get help, to change, to live a quality life must come from within - it is not something that a parent can force and they must recognize there is only so much control they have in the situation. I know this first hand. I've been in difficult situations with my parents trying everything possible to force something which could not be forced. You cannot expect your child to know what do to to get help or the steps they need to take, but they must at least want it.

I know that I always espouse the importance of psychiatric care and I don't mean to sound like a broken record nor do I mean to criticize parents who cannot get their children care - again this is ultimately their responsibility. However, I do mention it because I know from firsthand experience that in many cases without psychiatric treatment as a very first step, everything else is hopeless. Even for mild situations, it can be the reality that proper functioning depends on medications and therapy. For more complex dynamics, the fact of the matter is that without treatment the idea that it is even possible for them to control behavior, think rationally or make good decisions is a fallacy. My well being requires a medication cocktail - this is a fact for many.

 

[MandaC]

@MandaC I think the advice and guidance you have received from both @Deni D and @laugh is superb.


In particular, this analysis is very interesting. However, one thing that I think must be emphasized is regardless of the background, his behaviour is certainly consistent with some untreated mental illness. Speaking from direct experience as someone who has exhibited similar behaviours, it may be very hard for you to make progress unless he is treated properly. As Deni said, you are not a caregiver or therapist and at this stage and it is reasonable to set boundaries saying you cannot support him unless he is getting treatment. You can of course support this process by giving rides, finding doctors, and encouraging the use of mental health supports. But if he is unstable, any form of forward progress will be challenging.

Thanks for that reply and everyones. It does help. Since i last posted, i have set boundries, told him to stay away from me probably 3 times and each time caved in. 3 days ago i repeated the process and am trying hard not to contact him ( and he hasnt me) but the thing i struggle with is knowing hes unwell mentally ( i have in the past had him sectioned under the mental health act snd his diagnosis then was drug induced psychosis). I actually believe he has schizophrenia, if not that, he is definately listening to voices. I should add that i am a trained mental health nurse although have not worked as one in a long time, so i do recognise the signs. After he was released from section too soon and without being prescribed medication because he told the psychiatrist he was fine in order to be discharged, he hasnt got any better, wont seek help, denies that he hears voices . So we have this problem plus the anger and aggression. And as you so rightly mentioned, it is going to be difficult to move forward as he refuses to seek treatment. And so i guess what im trying to say is, im struggling to keep to the no contact and boundries because i know hes unwell and on his own as he has isolated himself, broke contact from all his friends, doesnt speak to any other family. I cant sleep for worry, i have morbid thoughts that he may be lying dead and i dont know and guilt . His last words to me where, im sorry, i love you but stay away from me. How can i stay away when i know all this? Do i just let my son deterioate further and further. Im in Scotland and the NHS give no help unless the patient themselves ask for it.

 

[Copabanana]

Do i just let my son deterioate further and further. Im in Scotland and the NHS give no help unless the patient themselves ask for it.

I am trying to buck you up and support you. Nothing I think or write is meant to be critical.

What choice do you have? Here in the US, there is a conservatorship, like what Britney Spears had. But that has pros and cons.
Absent that, I don't see your (or my) options other than acceptance that we have no role in this.

You keep referencing your son's well-being. What about your own? Your physical well-being and your emotional well-being. Your life.

I think we are compelled to limit contact if we are unsafe emotionally or physically.

Then there are the emotional and medical costs of your continuing on high alert due to this ongoing agitation and sense of impending danger, from him and to him--where you have no control whatsoever.

Do you not have a responsibility to yourself to try to dial that down? In yourself and for yourself, let alone him? You see, our kids have a Geiger counter where they ascertain our emotional reactivity and enmeshment. It affects not only their behavior vis-a-vis us, but affects how they handle and navigate themselves and their lives.

I went back to psychotherapy 2.5 years ago because I had symptoms of a heart attack and had developed fibromyalgia--all stress-induced. I had dissociated around my son, (as in blacking out). Eventually, this was a bridge too far. Anybody who was here on this forum in those years could tell you that I could not, would not bow out of trying to find a way, no matter the cost to me, that he should be healed. I could not, would not, learn until my life became such a misery that I could do nothing else but see the truth. This took me years and years.

You can be smarter.

I love my son with all my heart. He is psychotic. I thought he might have Schizophrenia. I am a medical professional, as well. I treat mental illness. But my son is not my patient. He is my son. People grow up and they live as they can. Our sons either decide to seek help or are compelled by law to accept treatment, or they do not. Unless there is something in your country like conservatorship, where your son's rights are taken away, there is a reality that needs to be faced. And we as mothers are the ones who must face it.

I tried to find another way. I could not.

 

[MandaC]

Thats okay. I appreciate your advice and now, only now, finally realize that this is the best advice i could be given. Tonight, whilst driving him to a night shift job he was supposed ti be starting , he became verbally abusive, threatened to swerve the car in to on comung traffic, jumped out the car and smashed the back window with a half bottle of vodka ( this was soneone who was supposed to be starting a new job...with a half bottle in the work bag) So as off tonight , i am cutting all contact. My life is in danger being around him and i have well and truly had enough if the verbal abuse.

 

[Copabanana]

My life is in danger being around him and i have well and truly had enough if the verbal abuse.

I am so sorry. Please keep yourself safe.