it has been bugging me...

Discussion in 'General Parenting' started by Ktllc, Jan 22, 2012.

  1. Ktllc

    Ktllc New Member

    What is a border line level???
    In V's case, his "communication is at borderline level" (21 months).
    It just sounds so.... bad.
    Google search only bring up "borderline personality disorder" which, I would think, is completly different.
    What "line" are we talking about??
    Does it mean he is borderline retarded (although IQ is average)??
  2. buddy

    buddy New Member

    Absolutely NOT indicative of IQ. There are some kids who do have similar scores across developmental areas but if a test does not specifically say it is an IQ test then it can't be used as such. Q has scores on his language and motor and really all tests that are FAR FAR below his IQ scores. Borderline level, if in your school assessment, probably refers to the cut off criteria for entering the program. It depends on the area they are qualifying him for what the cut off is. Usually something like two tests in that area which are 1 SD (standard deviation) below the mean/average for her age, or 1.5 SD or one test that is 2SD etc... you get the idea.... just depends on the criteria your state has adopted and it of course has to fall within what the federal guideline is.

    What is more telling is what percentile the V's scores fell into. Do you have that?

    Sorry they were not more specific but your asking that question will be helpful for them to realize their writing style is not parent friendly.
  3. Ktllc

    Ktllc New Member

    That was in the report done by the doctor of the private psycho evaluation.
    V is 4.5 years old, tests at 21 months in social commuication which, according to doctor, is a borderline level...
    If I were to translate it in percentile: V would be in the 38%. Right?
    I still wonder what level the doctor is talking about... Maybe some kind of functioning stand point??
  4. buddy

    buddy New Member

    No, I think you are figuring a percentage based on the age score and his age....

    OK, first, in general he is saying that in terms of social communication, he is at a low end of what would be officially delayed in his opinion. Now, as a parent, are you comfortable with that big of a delay?? I assume not. And given the comparison to other test scores, is this a much lower score than other areas of development?? If so, that is the important thing to note. That he is really struggling in this area comparatively speaking.

    But officially,

    On standardized tests, a child(or whoever takes whatever test) gets a RAW score. That score is the actual score they get on the test (number right, or number wrong or whatever depending on the test)

    That Raw Score is converted to a Standard Score, in the case of these tests, based on his actual age on the day of testing. The standard scores are based on a "normal distribution curve" simply, the mean/average score is 100. 1 SD above and below the mean are standard scores of 85-110 (about 68% of those who took the test fell within that range).... It only means they have that score on that kind of test in that area being tested...It does not mean that on other kinds of tests he will get the same. In fact it can be useful to compare one kind of test to another, and at times it is not.

    IQ is an example of using a standard score... 100 is "average" 85-110 clearly within average range... and below that is still "average" for quite a way...but we start to say low average etc. Different people will say 75 is the cut off for below average scores, some say 73, some say 70 but you get the idea.

    A test in an area like language when given a standard score then can be compared to the IQ score in this way... they can say, hey he has an IQ/ability of 90 but his language understanding is testing at a standard score of 65. Pretty significant difference. Well, that could mean there is a problem because he is not functioning to his potential. A language learning disability.

    [Of course that means one would have to buy into IQ being a truly valid representation of ability. But that is another discussion. (For some kids it is just not a good measure in my humble opinion)]

    Say his Standard Score was 70, that is 2 SD below the mean of 100 and most use this as a clearly below normal (it would be the 2nd percentile rank which means of 100 people taking the test, 98 would do better than that score.... do you see how that is different from a percentage?)

    I am awful with statistics so I am sure I am much worse at explaining it.

    There are limitations to using grade or age scores. They are not used frequently but are more commonly in very young kids or very very delayed kids because people can relate to ages, but the problem is... then people panic and think that the child's overall development is at that age.

    He should have included more than age scores, they can cause great concern because there is a range of normal and he is saying that in his opinion he is on the borderline of that normal range and delayed. It would be easier to see that if he said he fell in the 25th percentile rank for could then see that of 100 kids taking the test at that age, 25 would have the same or lower scores than your child.

    Did they report the scores in any other format?

    sorry I am not a good teacher in this... anyone else who can explain better feel free...
  5. Ktllc

    Ktllc New Member

    No, Buddy: you are a good teacher!
    It is a foreign language to me, and I'm the kind of person who likes to understand. ;)
    I believe I got the idea. I agree that his report was lacking explanation in order to be parent friendly.
    I'm sure it is a very good report for other professional in the field, but not for me. lol
    Thanks for taking the time!
  6. buddy

    buddy New Member

    oh good, I actually didn't re read it because Q was wanting to use the internet to check some sports scores so I felt all over the place.... and it was the one B I got in grad school... and that was a huge struggle! I understand it, but can't tell you how things are derived etc.

    I think it would be perfectly fine for you to ask for the standard scores and if there are none.... (there are a few tests that only offer things like, "at risk" "shows signs of" etc, then you have what you have...but since he converted it to age equivalent scores, I would think there will be standard scores.

    I think it is wonderful you want to know. I HATE reports that are not written in a parent friendly way. I never do that.
  7. myeverything04

    myeverything04 New Member

    I was completely confused with the RAW vs. the Standard Score when my daughter was tested for learning disabilities as well. It is very confusing as they give you all these scores and percentages but it's hard to tell what is what. I think Buddy did a very good job at explaining!

    I also have to say that I absolutely HATE when anyone uses the terms "borderline" because to me it's saying "well, there may be an issue and there may not be an issue," which tells me, as a parent, absolutely nothing because I'm not a doctor, you are!
  8. InsaneCdn

    InsaneCdn Well-Known Member

    "Borderline" is a term that gets used a fair bit around here, but in a way that makes sense to us... at least, they way they explained it.

    If the child scores well into the range of indicating a problem, then its likely to stick long-term.
    if the child scores well out of the range of indicating a problem, then this is also likely to stick.
    But... if their score is really close to the cut-off point ... it could go either way. So, rather than make a call one way or the other, they call it "borderline" which (around here) means teachers and other professionals are to treat this child as though they had the diagnosis, but... if the inteventions etc. aren't working, then maybe the diagnosis is incorrect...
  9. Malika

    Malika Well-Known Member

    Any chance you can ring the guy who did the testing, or have an appointment to meet him again, to speak about all your concerns and get clarification? I would have thought it a very understandable thing to do (and the testing was, after all, pretty expensive :))
  10. Ktllc

    Ktllc New Member

    I looked at the report, once more. For communication the score (standard if I understood buddy's explannation) was 79. So I see how that would be borderline if we assume the line is 73 or 70.
    There are a lot of "at risk" and "clinically significant" and then the score are chinese again! (not around 100 at all!).
    I will the devel. pediatrician this week and hopefully he can clarify things a bit.
    But you know how it goes: the report on my desk and 10 days before a meeting. Just not good! All those questions spinning in my head.
  11. buddy

    buddy New Member

    Now you're cookin'

    How did that compare with his other scores?

    Since this was in the area of social communication it is again another example of possible Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD) issues.... (of course there are other kids who have social communication issues, but you have these other things too....) so just be open to working on the deficits and be prepared in future to have the specific issues evaluated in more depth as you move on and gather more info. The assessment really never ends. Therapy is a constant assessment, data gathering process so keep collecting info as you work with him.... He is a kid where I really think your book keeping will pay off big time.
  12. Ktllc

    Ktllc New Member

    Those are based on parent ratings BASC-2:
    at risk: aggression 66, anxiety 60, adaptability 32, functional communication 32, atypicality (??) 60, behavior symptoms index 67.
    clinically significant: withdrawal 81, activities of daily living 28.
    Buddy, I begin to realize there is no such thing as waiting for THE evaluation... but, the first good evaluation gives us a starting point.
    I can see V change everyday. Not in the sense that he becomes worse or better. But issues are shifting and nothing is ever permanent.
  13. buddy

    buddy New Member

    I think that is what professionals who do not walk in our shoes way underestimate. Yes, we are all over the place when we start.... but we really do learn triggers, and can think of them in those moments but really it is hard to think of ALL of them when in an assessment, and we know which medication helps which little symptoms, we notice that if they have a cold then X could be worse or if they are hungry you can tell by how they do Y. Even if when they are growing, you notice a regression in language use or whatever..... that is exactly in the end what puts things together.

    With all the talk of tics here and Q... people helping to answer my questions about the differences between compulsions/perseverations and reflexive tics, etc.... (seems like there are few differences and not sure anymore that it really matters, the effect is the same).... I talked to each one of the docs. All said it was tic-like stuff. BUT the neuro helped me see more specifically even though I could see the issue and knew it inside me... here we are at 15 and I finally can explain it to others better.... (things are said with the same intonation, repeated under the same circumstances--esp during gross motor movement and fear of punishment)....

    It is a life long process. My motto long ago became........."monitor, and adjust".

    V is so blessed to have you as his parents.