A long time ago I heard a sermon of which the only thing I remember was the preacher saying that there were three ways that children learned to stay away from harmful things. He illustrated his point with the hot stove that many houses had for heat, 50 years ago when he was a child -- - Those who could be told "don't touch the stove" and would never go near it after that. - Those who were told, but didn't really get the message until they saw another child get burned. - Those who had to touch the stove and get burned themselves before they learned. To which I would add a fourth type, which describes so many of our difficult children: those who touch the stove and get burned over and over, and only gradually or never at all do they learn. It's complicated by the fact that like with that stove in the summer time, sometimes they can get away with "touching the stove" without getting burned (e.g. driving drunk but not getting stopped or hurting somebody).