New and in a crisis.

Discussion in 'General Parenting' started by Tonya, May 21, 2012.

  1. Tonya

    Tonya New Member

    ****. So two weekends ago my 11 year old adopted son killed a kitten. He has schizophrenia, ADD, PTSD, ODD and Reactive Attachment Disorder (RAD). I was in the hospital with another son who needed to have his brain shunt replaced. husband called an agency and they took him to the psychiatric ward. This is the third time this year that he was in a psychiatric ward. The kid has killed another cat before, tried several times to molest a younger sibling, molested an older sibling, and he's started fires before. When I called him for the first time since going in his first question to me was "Did I scare you with what I did?" Now he's "stable" per the hospital, THEY WANT TO SEND HIM HOME. HELLO. There is no way we can watch him 24/7. He killed the kitten in under 5 minutes. What's next on his hit parade? I'm so afraid that if I take too long in the bathroom or if I watched a TV program he could slip off and hurt one of our younger kids. Telling us to just keep closer tabs on him is NOT the answer. We thought we had close tabs on him already, but apparently we didn't plan in emergencies where I needed to be out of the house and husband had to go potty. They won't put him in a residential treatment place due to the costs. We've asked for a grant package, but we were told it could take up to 6 months for it to go through. If we just turn him over to DCFS they've said it would hamper our adoption of my best friends kids. Anyone have any ideas?

    (How's that for an introduction?! My name is Tonya, I have 8 kids, 6 adopted out of foster care and 2 that I will be adopting in September. They were my best friends kids, but she died of cancer last July. It was my home or foster care, so here they are!)
  2. Bunny

    Bunny Guest

    Welcome to the board, althought I'm sorry that you need to be here.

    There is alot of things going in with your son. Who diagnosed him? Is he currently taking any medications? What's he like in school?

    From what you're saying it sounds like he is definately NOT stable. Are they sending him home because your insurance won't cover him any longer? Have you spoken to the doctor at the psychiatric hospital? Does he have an opinion on what you should do next? It's not just a question of what is best for him. It's a matter of keep the other children safe from your son, and keeping your son safe from himself.

    If they are telling you that it could take 6 months to get a grant for the Residential Treatment Center (RTC), I would start that ball rolling NOW!! At least you can get the wheels in motion on that.
  3. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    Hi, Tonya.

    I adopted a child like that. He killed two dogs and probably more animals that he didn't te ll us about. He molested my younger children. He was a psychopath and, yes, there are kids you can not help that should not live in homes and your son is one of them. I would just refuse to pick him up. He is a real danger to all of you. He has signs of a budding psychopath: The three big symptoms are: cruelty to animals, peeing and pooping inappropriately, and playing with fire.

    in my opinion you will regret it if you keep him home. As soon as we were finally sure our son was doing horrible things, we called CPS and asked them to come and take him and he never came back again. We refused to take him back and they understood and never tried to push and got help for the two children that he molested. They were really kind. But we are still living with the aftermath.

    You are brave. We had three adopted k ids before this child and after him we never wanted to adopt/foster care again. And we never did.

    (((Hugs))) I am so sorry.
  4. buddy

    buddy New Member

    If he is adopted from foster care, do you have any post adoption services in your city/county? I would think NOT placing him out of the home could interfere with the adoption of the two others. yikes, so much for common sense, huh? It does sound like you know he needs to be in residential care. Even if it may take months, it is still worth starting the process because you can still look for faster options but at least one option is started, right? or am I not understanding??

    I am just so sorry. You dont have more animals I hope? There are others here who have had kids kill pets. My son killed hamsters when he was little, but it was a fear response, he was holding them and one bit so he threw them. He still remembers and feels badly. Very different thing but he does say things like, I'm too tough for you and I w ill never back down when I am mad I'll show you and you will pay for it, etc. Tons of verbal junk like that. (he has attachment issues too)

    For now he will need to go with you everywhere, and when you go to the bathroom, he can sit outside of the door and sing so you know he is there.... I had to do that with Q a long time ago. You are right though, there obviously will be some point where he is alone. any chance to get a waking hours pca? In home care at least costs less than residential until you can make other arrangements. I can imagine you feel quite desperate. I have an intense child but no others to worry about. I know others here can offer ideas better than I. Some have had cameras in every room of the house.

    Welcome to the CD board, so glad you found us! Will be thinking of you and hoping for some relief. hugs.....
  5. Tonya

    Tonya New Member

    We do have post adoptive services, but we adopted him in MO and now live in IL. His medicare is now through IL so getting services in MO is difficult.

    We called for the grant package the day we found out about it. We can't do anything until we get it in the mail. I am putting all sorts of therpists and folks on notice that I'll need a ton of documentation.

    As for other animals...we have a dog (a Corgi), 2 cats and now 2 kittens in the home. We also have a farm with 5 goats, 24 chickens, a cow and numerous barn cats. It would be next to impossible to get rid of all of the animals. The dog is 7 years old and he doesn't mess with him. the Corgi is really good at setting boundries with kids. He's never bit one, but he will growl when they get too close to his line. In this economy it's very difficult to rehome cats and kittens. I heard that many times they're used for dog fighting, animal testing or for food for snakes. I have a hard time giving them away. Besides, i have two daughters who are very attached to the cats and kittens and they have really been taking exceptional care of them. Getting rid of them would make them totally hate their brother forever. I feel really stuck here because I can't give the animals away and other family members are appropriate with them and love them.
  6. Liahona

    Liahona Guest

    Buddy, I don't think your idea of 24/7 supervision will work. You have to factor in the other kids can walk up to him while he is singing while mom is in the bathroom. He could really hurt or kill one. There are just to many factors to consider. I've lived like that with difficult child 1 when he was younger until I couldn't keep the other kids safe. Now that he is older I don't think I could do the 24/7 thing again. He is just to big and sneaky and there are to many other kids now. I have to be able to have some level of trust with him or he will be out of our house. There comes an age where 24/7 supervision doesn't work any more.

    There have been others here who have had to refuse to pick up their kid from the phos; for safety reasons. The phos and cps used everything they could think of to threaten them with to come get this child. Truth is no agency is going to want to admit responsibility for paying for treatment.

    After something awful happened cps could come in and take all the other kids saying the parents didn't protect them enough.

    I strongly feel her child should not be in a home situation right now.

    Welcome to the board. You are in the right place.
  7. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    Has he already molested them? How do they feel about his kiliing the cat?

    I found that my k ids already hated him, and they still do (as well as fear him).

    You have soooooooooooo many animals. I am sure our child killed more animals than the ones we know about. My daughter told me she saw him strangling a neighbor's cat and he said to her, "If you tell anyone, I'll kill you." The cat was saved when a neighbor came out of the house. He dropped the cat and it ran away. One of our daughter's cats disappeared. We do not know for sure that he killed it, but we assume he did, since it never came home and it always came home before.

    Enough about our child. Hon, this is not a child that should ever again live in your home. He can ever be trusted by himself or alone with your other children or animals. If social services find out he molests any of your kids currently in your home, they will not allow you to adopt those kids any more than if you give him back to the system. In fact, they could remove your other children too. It's not a pretty situation. Is it even possible to keep everyone safe from him? in my opinion, no.

    You'd need to get an alarm on his bedroom door so that if he even goes to the john at night you are aware that he is out of his room and can monitor him. Somebody would have to watch him 24/7, which is not possible. Even going to the toilet would be hard.

    You'd need to call a cat rescue and try to give your cats to them. I am an uber-uber animal lover and don't think it's fair for some little, innocent animals be put in harm's way. It is so easy to kill a kitten.

    I think you should also find a rescue for the dogs. I never dreamed R. could kill our cocker spaniel. He could be cranky. But he strangled him and forced my other children to watch him doing it. He also told them he'd kill them if they told their parents that he had done it. He acted like an angel around adults so we didn't suspect him. Instead we thought it was some nasty teenagers who lived down the road. The second dog he killed was the one that gave him away. He was home from school and only he and I were there. We had bought a sweet female cocker spaniel puppy to try to make our family get over the loss of our strangled dog. Suddenly R. came running to me, yelling that the puppy had strangled herself on her leash.

    We called the cops. They said that he had done it, even though he wouldn't admit it. And of course he had. Why would the poor little girl even have her leash on in the house? He had thrown her over the top bunk bed, her leash's loop over the bed post. He had hung her. I still cry (and am now) when I think about that poor puppy's death. You can not trust these kids who do not have a conscience.

    He also set little fires in his room, something the kids didn't tell me until he was gone. Then they showed us the parts of the old carpeting that he had burned, but not until after he was gone.

    Although we had told our kids to always trust us if somebody hurt them or scared them, this child was so frightening to them that they felt he was too dangerous to betray. He threatened to burn the house down and kill us all. This was all done without our knowledge. God only knows what your son has done. You will not know while he is living there.


    When there are other children and animals to consider, in my opinion it is unfair to force them to live with a child who is so damaged that he has no conscience or boundaries. If this were me, I would ask CPS to take him away. If you can not adopt the other two children, then at least they will not suffer his abuse. We gave up another child we were hoping to adopt when we asked CPS to take R. Turns out, R. was also sexually abusing THAT child. He is now adopted in another family and happy. We get reports.

    Sadly, there are some children who are so damaged they can not live in a family. in my opinion he is one of them. Our ex-son was taken to a residential center for young sexual predators. He was also charged at age 13 for sexual assault of a minor child (our other kids were six years younger than him and that is considered the magic number). He is a lifetime sexual predator and is supposed to sign up wherever he moves although I know for a fact he has not. He is married now with two little girls, God help them.

    We still live with his specter haunting us forever, and nobody wants anything to do with him again. According to his social worker, he never did improve in residential. Instead he tried to perp there too.

    We had no idea that this child was sexually abusing our children until my little one started getting urinary tract infections...then we got suspicious. He hid it well and scared the little ones to death. And you don't really know all your son has done either. Trust me on that. Yes, I know I already said that and you may think you do. But you don't; you can't.

    Gentle hugs and hope for a sane solution to a terrible problem. not bring this child back to your house. There is no way you can watch him all the time and he may perp at school or in the neighborhood too...and you are his guardians. You are responsible.
  8. DammitJanet

    DammitJanet Well-Known Member Staff Member

    I dealt with a woman who I thought was a friend who had a son who perped on his youngest step sister. They also were a large family. He was the oldest. It was a mess of a case and she really didnt want him charged and to avoid that I agreed to take the boy into my house while they looked for a Residential Treatment Center (RTC) who would take a boy like him who was a sexual predator for a fairly long term treatment. I had no girls in or around my home at the time. I dont know if I did the right thing or not. I was able to get him started in therapy and it was summer time so school wasnt an issue. I know after he left we found porn having to do with incest at my house and he had stolen some stuff from us. His mother really never spoke to me much or sent me any support to help me like she had promised. I probably did the wrong thing because looking back, he should have been charged but at the time I thought she was such a good friend.

    If you really want to adopt these other kids and are so worried this will effect you badly, maybe you could find a relative with no kids who can watch him 24/7 plus take him to the therapy he will need. I dont know. It might buy you the time you need.
  9. buddy

    buddy New Member

    Oh I totally agree.....but until he is out what other choice? She is not wanting to get rid of the animals, she wants to adopt her friends kids....

    At least if they can get 24/7 PCA in home??? along with the alarms etc. until this package thing comes thru. Or as Janet suggested another friend/family member with no kids or animals? But there is still the fire thing and neighbor kids....

    The risk of death and molestation is too great. You can get animals again. What will your other kids feel if the animals die? Much worse than if they are just re-homed.

    It really is sad, there is not an easy answer... I am so sorry for you. Lia knows what she is talking about....MWM as well....I'd listen to them for sure...but that is me and we all have our own choices to are supported no matter what you decide. There is no easy fix, that is for sure.
  10. DaisyFace

    DaisyFace Love me...Love me not


    Hello and Welcome!

    This kid is molesting his siblings and the docs do not consider him a danger to his family???? Ugh!

    I wish I knew more about resources for adopted children. Is it possible to "un do" this adoption?
  11. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    Biddy, since there are other children involved, I would not take him back. The molested children can speak up. Sadly, these are some of the risks we take when we adopt children who have been so traumatized that some can never be helped. She has way too much going on in her house to follow him around 24/7. He'd need a 24/7 caregiver who is very responsible and won't spend time texting her boyfriend etc. And if he can even be helped, it should not in my opinion be in her home where he can continue to traumatize the rest of the family. Trust me, he has done more than she knows...and what she knows is bad enough. And SHE is liable.

    Maybe foster care with a couple who is motivated and has no pets or children?

    There are few resources for a child who is adopted. It is much like your biological children.
  12. slsh

    slsh member since 1999

    Hi Tonya, and welcome. I've been wracking my brains for an alternative solution but... aside from the grant, the only one is to dig your heels in and tell hospital/psychiatrist/admitting agency that it is impossible for a child to be monitored 24/7 in the home setting - they know this and they need to be reminded forcefully that even in hospital or Residential Treatment Center (RTC) setting, 24/7 supervision is iffy at best, even though they have far better staffing than you have at home. Your son has demonstrated very dangerous behaviors and by insisting that he be discharged home, the powers that be are putting *you* and your other children at risk.

    There needs to be a very solid discharge plan, including supports for your family which, in my humble opinion, should include another body in the home to keep eyes on him. IL is advanced in having the grant program but woefully behind when it comes to community services and supports - if discharge planners can't find a body to keep eyes on him, then they need to look at in-home nursing, PCA, whatever it takes. I agree that he cannot return home unless you've got supports.

    Personally, I would focus on the fact that even if he was your *only* child, it is impossible to maintain 24/7 eyes on supervision in the home setting. It's not that you have other children you have to protect, although obviously you do, but it's the fact that there is simply no way a family can institute the type of supervision your son requires.

    I've been out of the grant loop for a few years now, but I would think/hope you could work with- the local MH agency on this. What services can they provide? Is there emergency respite/therapeutic foster placement? I know "crisis team" was a term no one understood in my corner of the state, but maybe there's one in your area? They simply cannot discharge him home with the plan being you are going to "supervise" better. It's ridiculous.

    Hugs - hope you are able to get the powers to use some common sense. Welcome to the board.
  13. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    Except in Wisconsin (my state) and Pennsylvania you can dissolve an adoption. In this case, the child would probably get more services if he were in state care. And he desperately needs those services. You can not afford what he needs, but the state can.

    We were able to undo our adoption because a judge read the gruesome details and was so positive that our other kids should not be traumatized by this child ever again that he gave us that option...and we took it. We could not save R., but we could certainly give a safe, loving home to the other two children. by the way, for those who don't k now, the other two were also adopted. This is NOT a message against adoptioin.

    I do feel that if you have younger children, the children you adopt should always younger and much smaller so that they can't be threatened or intimidated. This child we adopted is not as rare as one would think. Many have been sexually abused and act out, even if they don't remember the abuse, as our R. did not. He was absolutely clueless and remorseless about why he did it or what he'd done. In a way, he was the biggest victim...and now he is a father and I'm sure he will create more victims.

    What you call molestation could be sex. This boy had sex with my five year old. She was tested and her hymen was broken and it looked as if there had been penetration (in other ways). My little girl Jumper is not a virgin because of him and he was so sneaky (from years of practice) that every adult he met just loved him. Do you know hard it is not to report that he has not signed up as a sexual predator in our state? He is supposed to and has not. He was busted for not signing up one time (we checked his court records), yet he did it again and now he has two babies.

    But we are all terrified of him. He is six feet tall now, 21, and lives in Green Bay, two hours away. We are afraid if we report him, he'll think of us and try to find us (we have moved since). I think about his poor little girls all the time, but our family has decided to let him be because he knows our children told the judge what he'd done and he has a violent temper. We don't know what he'd do if he was reminded of us again and got angry.
  14. buddy

    buddy New Member

    I agree, that would be my choice too. I'm just responding to what she is saying her decision.... I too worry that there is a bigger risk that she wont get to adopt the two if he stays in the home placement (unlike what the sw's arethreatening). I think (just a thought, not fact of course) they are manipulating her to take him home with this emotional threat now, but worry that in reality they are mandated reporters and have an obligation to tell the adoption workers too about the risk to these other kids. I'd ask, so you mean if I take him home the adoption will FOR SURE go through???? Not that that is a reason to take him home but to see what their real position is.

    A risk of a lifetime of trauma for all of them if they have to worry about animals being tortured and dying in front of them, of dealing with their own threats of being hurt or killed and the abuse... versus a different risk of saying goodbye to pets and maybe even having to place the other two with a different loving family???? If (and he may have) he has hurt the MWM said, they may be better off if they can be in a safer home setting, which would be hard in other ways ---they already lost their mom and this isnt just a stranger adoption...they are bonded due to their mom being a best friend. Could there be a placement like an open adoption so the bond could continue on an auntie level?

    I agree with all you say, MWM, just too many risks. But what to do if Tonya and her husband decide that is not the choice for them? Tonya, you said they (SW's) already said that it would interfere with the adoption of the two if you refuse to take him home or place him out of home. But similar to what Lia said and what makes more sense to me (and this just happened here to a family who refused to take their son home, but the judge then said they had to, and cps charged them for abandonment AND said when he came home they would still take the little ones if the older one hurt they put these parents in a no win situation)... I'd think the risk really is of losing all of the kids (AND the animals if someone (police or social worker) calls the ASPCA or humane society).

    The family in our county's case decided to place him, not bring him home, they are charged but protecting their kids, he was forced to come home (or they were going to be put in jail, and mom is ill and also has a broken arm from her difficult child) and sure enough, he got in trouble and is back in the system as the parents said would happen without help. The little ones are still at home, the parents called them on the threat against them and refused to take their difficult child home as long as they could. Then agreed to call the police and support charges against him to keep him out, but the first time (the broken arm) the police lied to her and said they couldn't press charges against their own disabled son. She got legal advice after that.

    To the point of not knowing all he has done (I agree, it is most certainly way more than is known yet...) until he is gone, the kids may not tell until they no longer feel he such a direct threat...could it be that the kids ultimately would be relieved if the animals left? (not that this would be their first choice of course) Even if they love them, and because they love them, they would be sad, resentful..yes, but they have to know what difficult child does to them right? They must suffer anxiety,other resentful feelings and concern that he will hurt more of them. Maybe you can consider whether the risk of that (and probably the eventual reality) would be worse than what they will go through if the animals are re-homed. (If you decide he has to come home, can you find fosters for the animals?? then get them back when he is placed?)

    It is awful to have to make huge decisions that go against our dreams for our families. I have not had to make a decision this big so just can't speak to that. I do have to consider protecting my son from himself though and that is another consideration. Overcoming doing such awful things is a terrible thing (for those who do feel to any degree....badly for what they did, yours may not but no way to fully know yet). We also need to protect our kids from themselves when they are so disabled.

    I think MWM's idea of foster care for difficult child with prepared parents who have no pets or children (or easy access to that nearby too??) could be a good choice if it is available. But I hear you are hesitant because you are worried you wont be able to adopt the others if you place him..again, think of what will happen if you dont and it turns out they already are or become victims....

    If you listen to MWM though, she has a really hard but honest point to consider...not saying this is for sure your answer....but I'd consult with professionals on this, your friend's children may be better off if you can help them find placement in a family where they wont be at risk. It is not that I dont think YOU are not good for them. I had to refuse another placement due to my son's dream of more than one child was gone when I realized the level of care my son needed. It was different than your situation because I didn't know him and he did not know of me, I do understand your situation is full of pros and cons, so consulting a child professional would be best, and being really honest within yourself about what is safest for the kids. Until you ask you dont know...there may be an option for an open adoption arrangement. So you can keep in touch and they wont lose another important person after the loss of their mom.

    May I ask, (as always you dont have to respond) do you talk to them all directly about the fact that difficult child does these things and what to do if he does, no matter what he says?? Have you had them all assessed for trauma and abuse? (I know it might not matter still, as mwm says, they can be so afraid they may not tell) Just wondering how one would even approach that likely possibility. MWM has said there is so much she didn't know until her son was out of the home, she knows what it is like. lia knows what it is like to have the child at risk of abusing stay,then placing him in an Residential Treatment Center (RTC), and later of having him come back....Again I know it is hard, well I can't possibly really KNOW, but I'd listen to them strongly because they have been beyond the point where you are and can help predict where it might go. They know what regrets you may experience.

    You are here, so clearly you do want to face the hard choices, but it can't be easy. Sorry for your broken heart.
  15. JJJ

    JJJ Active Member

    Call these people ASAP

    They are awesome at cutting through the red tape. DCFS Clinical Support (likely a level higher than your current post-adoption support) has funding for Residential Treatment Center (RTC) bed. Depending on the agreement between Missouri and Illinois, they may be able to access that funding.
  16. JJJ

    JJJ Active Member

    I was able to shove through a grant application in 5 months but it was tough. Insist that the current psychiatric hospital do full psychiatric testing including personality testing and reality testing.

    Have you spoken to your local police liason? They may be able to charge him and hold him in juvie, at least long enough for the grant application to go through.

    Have you spoken to your school district? Would they fund residential? This is only a so-so option as it won't cover the breaks from school.
  17. JJJ

    JJJ Active Member

    Do NOT bring him home. Throw it back on the DCFS workers -- would they want him in a home with their babies??

    Call their supervisor. They don't really want to take 7 kids into care so that they don't have to take 1. (Not that the front line workers won't do something stupid.)

    You may also want to contact an attorney and file a CHINS petition and have a judge order DCFS to take custody of him. This is rare for it to be a parent-initiated process but the law allows it.
  18. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    I can not imagine a social worker or any judge allowing this poster to adopt two more children knowing one of her children is a sexual predator. The mental health system expecting you to take the child home...sure! They don't know what to do with him. But I see it as working AGAINST her if she takes this dangerous child back.

    Nobody in social services was angry at us for refusing to take our then child back to the house. I'm sure if we decided to adopt or foster again, we'd be allowed to do it. We are thinking of fostering special needs babies now that Jumper is almost sixteen. I don't know if it would be forgiven if a child predator who kills animals and shows every sign of child psychopathy had been allowed to stay with our kids and pets. Our license was not taken from us. We simply chose to give it up. We did not suffer an consequences because this child was a threat to not onlyl OUR kids, but to kids in school, in the neighborhood, in grocery stores...there is no guarantee that a child predator just does things to children in his family. I believe R. was trying to perp on a poor disabled child in school who had no speech. He latched onto him (this was before the jig was up and we didn't know he'd perped) and the teachers were so happy that this boy finally had a friend. He also had epileptic fits and R. reported a few of them. Who knows what he did to this poor boy?

    For the sake of the community at large, as well as our family, R. needed to be self-contained. He tried to perp there too, but they have 24 hr. cameras running and they caught him a few times. One of the children who was in residential with him was terrified of him because he followed him around and had tried things with him in the bathrooms where there were no cameras.

    The three signs of a budding psyschopath/antisocial personality disorder are:

    1/Peeing and pooping at an inappropriate age and in inappropriate places (R. did this. We thought it was a new dog who was pooping all over)

    2/harming animals (well, R. did that....)

    3/Fascination with fire (R. set little fires to his rug)

    If a child does all three behaviors, he is a serious threat.

    I know a woman who had a foster child who burned her house down. They had to live in a hotel. The child is now sixteen, living elsewhere, and still laughs about the house he burned down.

    Do not believe every child can be saved. God, I wish it were true, but it is not true. It doesn't matter how young the child is. Some have already seen too much or been damaged too terribly to get help. Weekly therapy is a joke for children like this.

    I say, do not bring this child home no matter what. If you do, of course we will support your decision, but you will in my opinion likely be very, very sorry in the end.

    Eight normal kids is a handful. Eight kids from foster care plus this very dangerous one...I don't know that even Wonderoman and Superman combined could keep everybody safe under those conditions. Having a child like that in your midst is very risky. There is no really good way to make sure he is not hurting anyone else. That's why I would not take him back.
  19. JJJ

    JJJ Active Member

    MWM -- you said everything I was thinking.
  20. DaisyFace

    DaisyFace Love me...Love me not


    I think the "Catch-22" these days is that the system has begun charging parents with abandonment when they try to get their kids into DCFS custody for services. A "Child Abandonment" charge on one's record sure would make it difficult to continue to be a foster parent and/or adopt additional children.

    on the other hand - have a sexual predator in the home (if it's been reported to authorities) should ALSO make it difficult to adopt or be a foster parent.

    I fear that the parent here is really being trapped between a rock and a hard place...