bluebell
Well-Known Member
Thanks Copa!
Tug of War
- Thread starter Copabanana
- Start date
Thanks Copa!
Copa, if your love could save your son he would have been saved a long time ago. It's because of the love we have for difficult adult children that our hearts break. If we didn't feel love then we couldn't be hurt by them. Pain and broken hearts is the price we pay.
You know my story, I too bought a house for my son to live in. All he had to do was get a job. It sounds so simple and it should be but these difficult children do not see it that way. I don't think any of us will ever truly understand the mindset of how they view things.
I've shared before that my son did get a good job working in the warehouse of a furniture store. He started out making a very good wage. A few months into the job he quit. When I asked why his response was "because the owner has no clue how to run a business". My son said this about a man who has been in that same business for close to 30 years, obviously the man knows what he's doing. My son in his arrogance and cockiness claimed to know more.
I guess this where I started seeing, I mean "really seeing" some character flaws in my son. I started to understand that my helping was enabling and prolonging the inevitable. I wanted so desperately for my son to live the life I had envisioned for him. Coming to the realization that would never happen was hard. I was becoming more aware that my desire for his life was not his desire.
It still took me a long time to finally cut the apron strings and close the purse. Accepting that my son preferred to be a homeless wonderer was difficult but necessary for my own mental health and well being. His life is not the only life that matters. My life, your life and the lives of all the parents here matter. The older I get the clearer this is to me. We have a finite amount of time here. I always loved this line from the Shawshank Redemption "either get busy living or get busy dying". There is so much truth in that statement.
Copa, you and M have tried for so long and done so much to help your son. Only you will know when enough is enough. There are no time limits on how long we should continue to "help".
I'm so sorry for the heartache you are dealing with.
Be very good to yourself Copa!!
You know my story, I too bought a house for my son to live in. All he had to do was get a job. It sounds so simple and it should be but these difficult children do not see it that way. I don't think any of us will ever truly understand the mindset of how they view things.
I've shared before that my son did get a good job working in the warehouse of a furniture store. He started out making a very good wage. A few months into the job he quit. When I asked why his response was "because the owner has no clue how to run a business". My son said this about a man who has been in that same business for close to 30 years, obviously the man knows what he's doing. My son in his arrogance and cockiness claimed to know more.
I guess this where I started seeing, I mean "really seeing" some character flaws in my son. I started to understand that my helping was enabling and prolonging the inevitable. I wanted so desperately for my son to live the life I had envisioned for him. Coming to the realization that would never happen was hard. I was becoming more aware that my desire for his life was not his desire.
It still took me a long time to finally cut the apron strings and close the purse. Accepting that my son preferred to be a homeless wonderer was difficult but necessary for my own mental health and well being. His life is not the only life that matters. My life, your life and the lives of all the parents here matter. The older I get the clearer this is to me. We have a finite amount of time here. I always loved this line from the Shawshank Redemption "either get busy living or get busy dying". There is so much truth in that statement.
Copa, you and M have tried for so long and done so much to help your son. Only you will know when enough is enough. There are no time limits on how long we should continue to "help".
I'm so sorry for the heartache you are dealing with.
Be very good to yourself Copa!!
Copabanana
Well-Known Member
Yes.
When I told my son I had thought he did not love me anymore, he felt very bad. He said: who I did not love was myself.
You see, I think just as we are confused about who they are, anymore, they are confused, too. Because so much of what they are who good and strong, purposeful and constructive, is based upon the foundation of US. We have taken responsibility for so much (for good or ill). They desperately flail (drowning) demanding us to pull them out and punishing us for our incapacity. There is nothing fair about this dirty war.
Both, I think.
Because until they realize the agency is in them, that it is their moral war that needs to be waged, by them and for them, they are WRONG. They are the same, the user and the person. Until he chooses to separate the two. That is what I think.
Now, this is the terrain where we come to disagree. We agree on the war. But we do not agree on how to wage it. (I do not even agree with myself most of the time.)
M is the one who asked me to please allow him to help my son. You see, he felt guilty because he was the one initially 5 years ago that suggested my son would get better if I kicked him out, and he had to, of necessity work and experience real world consequences.
What happened, is my son free-loaded. For years he was rewarded by others, who sought to help him, when his bad, bad Mother would not. He lived rent free in San Francisco at a high priced motel for years. He got worse away from us, not better.
M wanted to teach him to work. And M wanted to be a family with my son. It was a leap of faith because my son had beaten M up and had called the police on us numerous times to put us in jail. M is undocumented. My son could have caused us a world of trouble. As it was he caused enough. My son was filled with his own importance and entitlement. I think he called the cops on us once because we did not let him turn on the air conditioner, when he was visiting.
So, what happened in the course of M teaching my son, was that I learned, too, what family is. That sometimes you have to fight for family. And to suffer. And there is frequently doubt. And the good results are few and far between. But you keep in your head, the result, which must be clear. The goals.
Marijuana was not a goal.
College was not a goal.
The goals? That my son learn and practice constructive acts, and take responsibility for them. That my son learn to create and recreate himself through his good acts.
And guess what?
It works for me, too. That I am recreated as a person.
I know that sometimes I seem obsessed. with this. Which is not necessarily a bad thing: I am recreating myself through this mission. I am saving my own soul. I am rebuilding family, that I did not ever have before.
So the process itself for me is the goal.
Thank you very much, ladies.
Copabanana
Well-Known Member
Tanya, what is that red X doing on your post? Am I missing something?
There was a time that I felt that my life had no meaning, or no good meaning, because my son was unable to thrive. He was the center of my life. I know now that I am the center of my life. Through this process I have come to see that I never did place myself at the center of anything. That was what all the achievement was about. I was striving to be somebody or something...always believing I was not.
I think there is not one word on this thread that is not true.
Our children need to manifest their own stories and live them. There is not one thing M or I can do to change that. We know that.
My son is on his way to talk to M about where he stands. I have made no promises about whether he can stay on at the other house. He has made it clear he will not pass a test for marijuana. He has made it clear he wants to and intends to continue to use. My comments about money management fall on deaf ears.
What we will do or choose I do not know.
But I am glad he made contact and was actually trying to call me all day yesterday. What that means, good or bad, I do not know.
I agree with this.
There was a time that I felt that my life had no meaning, or no good meaning, because my son was unable to thrive. He was the center of my life. I know now that I am the center of my life. Through this process I have come to see that I never did place myself at the center of anything. That was what all the achievement was about. I was striving to be somebody or something...always believing I was not.
I think there is not one word on this thread that is not true.
Our children need to manifest their own stories and live them. There is not one thing M or I can do to change that. We know that.
My son is on his way to talk to M about where he stands. I have made no promises about whether he can stay on at the other house. He has made it clear he will not pass a test for marijuana. He has made it clear he wants to and intends to continue to use. My comments about money management fall on deaf ears.
What we will do or choose I do not know.
But I am glad he made contact and was actually trying to call me all day yesterday. What that means, good or bad, I do not know.
Copabanana
Well-Known Member
Thanks Tanya. It showed up for me as a small photo with a big red x crossing it out. Now I can see it. I wholeheartedly agree.
I am thinking a lot about this thread.
I showed up here to CD nearly 2 years ago. I was dealing with the same issues then as I am now: trying to impose onto my son my own ideas about what he should do, how he should live, what should be his goals.
Six months after coming here I detached. That was not the first time that I had kicked my son out; he had already been gone for the most part 4 years. But I had not detached. I had frozen myself.
A year and a half ago, I detached. For real. I did not think much about him; I did not call him; when he called, I listened and did not participate.
This was the beginning of change for him.
Emphatically I believe I did the right thing then.
My son has not used hard drugs. He has not been arrested. He has a mood disorder and a difficult past: given a mortal disease by drug addicted parents, which we discovered when he was 19. Abused and abandoned by the time he was 2 weeks old; born drug exposed; living for 22 months in an orphanage. And I made it harder for him: He was my golden boy. My great love. I would not admit flaw into my illusion.
I am not blaming myself. I am human, not more, not less. So is he.
To hold him to an impossible standard, I do the same to myself. To hold myself to that standard is to not admit his humanity. Changing is a process. The goal of change, always negotiated, and re-negotiated; as we change, we know more.
We are all of us different people, with different values, different cultures and priorities. Different goals for ourselves. Our children, all different, too.
I can only decide what is right for me and for us as a family at any given moment. This thread has enabled me to see what I need right now, and to decide. Just for this minute.
I cannot control what my son decides.
I hope that the thread serves in some small way for others to do the same.
I am thinking a lot about this thread.
I showed up here to CD nearly 2 years ago. I was dealing with the same issues then as I am now: trying to impose onto my son my own ideas about what he should do, how he should live, what should be his goals.
Six months after coming here I detached. That was not the first time that I had kicked my son out; he had already been gone for the most part 4 years. But I had not detached. I had frozen myself.
A year and a half ago, I detached. For real. I did not think much about him; I did not call him; when he called, I listened and did not participate.
This was the beginning of change for him.
Emphatically I believe I did the right thing then.
My son has not used hard drugs. He has not been arrested. He has a mood disorder and a difficult past: given a mortal disease by drug addicted parents, which we discovered when he was 19. Abused and abandoned by the time he was 2 weeks old; born drug exposed; living for 22 months in an orphanage. And I made it harder for him: He was my golden boy. My great love. I would not admit flaw into my illusion.
I am not blaming myself. I am human, not more, not less. So is he.
To hold him to an impossible standard, I do the same to myself. To hold myself to that standard is to not admit his humanity. Changing is a process. The goal of change, always negotiated, and re-negotiated; as we change, we know more.
We are all of us different people, with different values, different cultures and priorities. Different goals for ourselves. Our children, all different, too.
I can only decide what is right for me and for us as a family at any given moment. This thread has enabled me to see what I need right now, and to decide. Just for this minute.
I cannot control what my son decides.
I hope that the thread serves in some small way for others to do the same.
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pasajes4
Well-Known Member
The boundaries are for us. Our "kids" appear to be hardwired to push against any kind of perceived rules. Let the consequences fall where they may. They learn that they don't have to change when we continuously waiver and bend on those boundaries. When they are of legal age, they will have to deal with the fallout.
If parental love and guidance was enough, none of our "kids" would be in the mess that they continuously find themselves.
If parental love and guidance was enough, none of our "kids" would be in the mess that they continuously find themselves.
Lost in sadness
Active Member
Bluebell, I agree with this. I felt twinges of guilt and worry about whether it is the right thing that I'm finding my life easier when I work on detachment because my son is not being decent and loving either. This is a great discussion that has brought plots of emotions. x
BusynMember
Well-Known Member
Thats the way, 4 tall. My kids worked part time in high school to help pay for gas and their part of car insurance, which is only about $200 for six months in this neck of the rural woods. They got money for clothes from a department store. If they wanted name brands, they paid the difference but mostly they all grew up, minus oldest son, to not really care about having the best toys.
All have great work ethics, even autistic son. None ever came to us demanding money. I think the time to teach them about paying your own way through life, starts in the early teens or they may never get it.
All have great work ethics, even autistic son. None ever came to us demanding money. I think the time to teach them about paying your own way through life, starts in the early teens or they may never get it.
I'm so sorry you are hurting.
I am a believer that some of our kids should only work part time. My thought is that they are unwell and that for them, PT, is like full time for a healthier person.
Many of them should be able to find the inner strength to hold it together for a few days a week.
And if they can't find a job like this or if they are on disability and can't keep the hours low enough ... it might be best to find a volunteer job.
I know someone who paid their son $5 an hour if he got a volunteer job and he did work almost 20 hours a week for awhile. The funny thing is this led to a 30 hour a week paying job at a nearby business.
(But this person is not on disability)
Our daughter works periodically for that professional woman in the neighborhood and I'm learning to accept, appreciate and be grateful for this.
She also babysits now and again.
I would not tolerate drug use and believe limits and boundaries have been very helpful wit hour daughter.
It is incredibly hard and painful.
I am a believer that some of our kids should only work part time. My thought is that they are unwell and that for them, PT, is like full time for a healthier person.
Many of them should be able to find the inner strength to hold it together for a few days a week.
And if they can't find a job like this or if they are on disability and can't keep the hours low enough ... it might be best to find a volunteer job.
I know someone who paid their son $5 an hour if he got a volunteer job and he did work almost 20 hours a week for awhile. The funny thing is this led to a 30 hour a week paying job at a nearby business.
(But this person is not on disability)
Our daughter works periodically for that professional woman in the neighborhood and I'm learning to accept, appreciate and be grateful for this.
She also babysits now and again.
I would not tolerate drug use and believe limits and boundaries have been very helpful wit hour daughter.
It is incredibly hard and painful.
BusynMember
Well-Known Member
Nomad. I AGREE if they are disabled.
My autistic son works about 25 hours a week and gets some social security and medical insurance. Im very proud if him.
However he doesnt take drugs and is not a problem for anyone in the family. Also he wanted to live in his own place and im glad because he needs to be used to it...we cant live forever...but we never told him he had to leave.
My autistic son works about 25 hours a week and gets some social security and medical insurance. Im very proud if him.
However he doesnt take drugs and is not a problem for anyone in the family. Also he wanted to live in his own place and im glad because he needs to be used to it...we cant live forever...but we never told him he had to leave.
Copabanana
Well-Known Member
Nomad. Do you, like I do, consider marijuana a drug?
If so, would you still help your daughter with housing if she used marijuana?
How would you and your husband deal with this circumstance?
Thank you.
SWOT... Sounds very good/very healthy. You have every right to be very proud.I consider mental illness often disabling. I think our daughter sometimes has to expend a lot of energy to keep from acting inappropriately. If she were in a job setting, I don't think she could do that for more than a few hours. So, this is why I'm thinking perhaps PT might be appropriate for some of our kids. Some might be able to do more, some might not be able to even that. It's just a possible option to consider. And I think PT work allows for at least some independence and of course, pride in work and productivity.
Copa...I do consider marijuana a drug. I think I could and would be more open to it's use for medical reasons like for glaucoma, extreme pain, etc. I don't mean to be hypocritical. I certainly don't have all the answers here. BUT, yes, generally speaking, I do consider it a drug and definitely NOT good for people, esp. the mentally ill and if our daughter was using marijuana there would be consequences.
When I worked with teens who smoked marijuana, I was saddened to see how it very negatively influenced them. It was actually more extreme than I would have ever imagined. Just simply caused them to lack any motivation whatsoever...a variety of losses.
I don't know exactly how my husband and I would deal with it...but I feel certain in my heart that there would be consequences. It is unacceptable in my mind.
I also know it would be an extremely upsetting and disturbing thing for our entire family.
Copa...I do consider marijuana a drug. I think I could and would be more open to it's use for medical reasons like for glaucoma, extreme pain, etc. I don't mean to be hypocritical. I certainly don't have all the answers here. BUT, yes, generally speaking, I do consider it a drug and definitely NOT good for people, esp. the mentally ill and if our daughter was using marijuana there would be consequences.
When I worked with teens who smoked marijuana, I was saddened to see how it very negatively influenced them. It was actually more extreme than I would have ever imagined. Just simply caused them to lack any motivation whatsoever...a variety of losses.
I don't know exactly how my husband and I would deal with it...but I feel certain in my heart that there would be consequences. It is unacceptable in my mind.
I also know it would be an extremely upsetting and disturbing thing for our entire family.
Copabanana
Well-Known Member
This is what I observe with my son. I have been unsuccessful in motivating him to stop.
We are at the point where we will not allow him to stay overnight at our house (the one where we live) a privilege that is important to him. He is comfortable here.
I do not know what else to do because I am trying to keep my eyes on the ball which is not one specific battle, but the war. If I force him out of the other house, what do I gain?
My state legalized marijuana last year although the mechanism to dispense it legally has not yet been set up, but I do not think they are even citing offenders anymore; my son has qualified to buy at medical dispensaries. I do not see how I win this war.
When he buys marijuana he lacks the money to buy food toward the end of the month. M bailed him out last month, to my consternation, a loan my son repaid. I did not agree with that.
The only thing more I can think of is to try to prevail on M to NOT LOAN money.
Can you think of any other approach to take?
Thank you.
Copa..your situation is slightly more complicated by the fact that your state you say has legalized marijuana usage and your son has qualified to buy it at medical dispensaries. Sometimes our situations become unusually complicated and it seems yours fits that bill.
We too greatly avoid loaning our daughter money.
However, the one exception, if we do make one, will usually be money for food.
I think it's good that you are making this a loan and you mentioned it has been paid back.
I would also consider putting a quiet "cap" on any loans for food. A maximum. Maybe not tell your son this, but have it be something you agree upon wit your significant other....perhaps something like this:
1. Avoid loans altogther.
2. Loans for food only and in an extreme situation.
3. Loans for a maximum of a certain amount of money (you and M agree ahead of time on a dollar amount per week/per month?)
4. Consider giving him a gift card to the food store if you aren't doing that already, so you know he is likely using it for food only. But make sure it is clear this is "real" money and when you expect to be paid back.
If there comes a time that he does not pay back a loan (for food), maybe you would have to rethink even this? A logical consequence. If he doesn't pay off a food loan.....cut off ALL food loans for a certain period of time...perhaps indefinitely.
Sending you cyber ((((hugs))))
We too greatly avoid loaning our daughter money.
However, the one exception, if we do make one, will usually be money for food.
I think it's good that you are making this a loan and you mentioned it has been paid back.
I would also consider putting a quiet "cap" on any loans for food. A maximum. Maybe not tell your son this, but have it be something you agree upon wit your significant other....perhaps something like this:
1. Avoid loans altogther.
2. Loans for food only and in an extreme situation.
3. Loans for a maximum of a certain amount of money (you and M agree ahead of time on a dollar amount per week/per month?)
4. Consider giving him a gift card to the food store if you aren't doing that already, so you know he is likely using it for food only. But make sure it is clear this is "real" money and when you expect to be paid back.
If there comes a time that he does not pay back a loan (for food), maybe you would have to rethink even this? A logical consequence. If he doesn't pay off a food loan.....cut off ALL food loans for a certain period of time...perhaps indefinitely.
Sending you cyber ((((hugs))))
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Copabanana
Well-Known Member
Thank you (*Nomad and others) for your well-thought ideas for my difficult situation.
My son does way better living with us or spending time with us each day. But once we allow him full range of the house, he thinks he has become leader of the pack.
For the past week or more he has been at the other house, where having full freedom, he turns more to weed and to wasting time. It is a trade-off.
The way things were left today (he came over belatedly to pay the rent, which I would not accept) is that on Tuesday he will come over with proofs in hand that he has been working productively to improve his life, in whatever way he chooses to the equivalent of 8 hours a day.
If we do not lay on him he will do nothing, talking about lofty goals or good ideas that never become a reality.
M is resolute that we have more control to force change with him close to us, but he recognizes our chances are not that great. His preference is that my son himself decides to leave because we are onerous and ride him too much, rather than us pushing him out.
I, however, feel that there are downsides to permitting non-compliance over a long period; that this implies consent. I insist we are at the end of the line. That is why I do not want money. YET.
I feel adamant that if he does not produce tangible demonstration of his productivity he is out. I will tell him he can come back to our house where we live, only with a clean marijuana test, and with the proof that he has achieved college-level mathematics proficiency certified by testing. (He told M today that he decided he wants to be a mathematician! Give me a break.)
This has worked before *actually 10 years ago. I pushed him to go to Job Corps and would not let him home until he completed a certificate. He did.
I can (and do) ask myself, what kind of changing has any of my pushing led to, accomplished, if 10 years later we are in the same place? With my pushing?
And how do I answer that? 10 years later: my son has largely lived with us for the past year conflict-free. The police have not been called once. He has no arrest record. He has not used hard drugs, ever, that I am aware. He is better monitoring his Hepatitis. If we allowed it, he would work all day every day for us. His moods are more stable and he is less aggressive. He is not threatening suicide. His days of low moods are far fewer. He grows every day more articulate (hard to imagine how verbal he is) and more companionable. There have been no incidences of property damage for many months. He has not had any hospital admissions for 9 months (these happen only when we ask him to leave here.) He does not see as an option, any longer, homelessness or being a couch surfer. (Unfortunately he works hard to avoid these outcomes only when he is almost being thrown out.)
There is a lot of water under the bridge, but he is treading water, and keeps at it.
What is the result I want? Often I think of this process as about my son "changing." But I know I cannot make somebody change. I guess what I am after is greater tolerance to support my son to continue as he is able, to have more stability, accountability, security and contentment. I want to be able to show my son love and patience. I want to be able to have hope and to demonstrate it.
Thank you. I had not before defined the result I was after.
My son does way better living with us or spending time with us each day. But once we allow him full range of the house, he thinks he has become leader of the pack.
For the past week or more he has been at the other house, where having full freedom, he turns more to weed and to wasting time. It is a trade-off.
The way things were left today (he came over belatedly to pay the rent, which I would not accept) is that on Tuesday he will come over with proofs in hand that he has been working productively to improve his life, in whatever way he chooses to the equivalent of 8 hours a day.
If we do not lay on him he will do nothing, talking about lofty goals or good ideas that never become a reality.
M is resolute that we have more control to force change with him close to us, but he recognizes our chances are not that great. His preference is that my son himself decides to leave because we are onerous and ride him too much, rather than us pushing him out.
I, however, feel that there are downsides to permitting non-compliance over a long period; that this implies consent. I insist we are at the end of the line. That is why I do not want money. YET.
I feel adamant that if he does not produce tangible demonstration of his productivity he is out. I will tell him he can come back to our house where we live, only with a clean marijuana test, and with the proof that he has achieved college-level mathematics proficiency certified by testing. (He told M today that he decided he wants to be a mathematician! Give me a break.)
This has worked before *actually 10 years ago. I pushed him to go to Job Corps and would not let him home until he completed a certificate. He did.
I can (and do) ask myself, what kind of changing has any of my pushing led to, accomplished, if 10 years later we are in the same place? With my pushing?
And how do I answer that? 10 years later: my son has largely lived with us for the past year conflict-free. The police have not been called once. He has no arrest record. He has not used hard drugs, ever, that I am aware. He is better monitoring his Hepatitis. If we allowed it, he would work all day every day for us. His moods are more stable and he is less aggressive. He is not threatening suicide. His days of low moods are far fewer. He grows every day more articulate (hard to imagine how verbal he is) and more companionable. There have been no incidences of property damage for many months. He has not had any hospital admissions for 9 months (these happen only when we ask him to leave here.) He does not see as an option, any longer, homelessness or being a couch surfer. (Unfortunately he works hard to avoid these outcomes only when he is almost being thrown out.)
There is a lot of water under the bridge, but he is treading water, and keeps at it.
What is the result I want? Often I think of this process as about my son "changing." But I know I cannot make somebody change. I guess what I am after is greater tolerance to support my son to continue as he is able, to have more stability, accountability, security and contentment. I want to be able to show my son love and patience. I want to be able to have hope and to demonstrate it.
Thank you. I had not before defined the result I was after.
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Copabanana
Well-Known Member
I love this quote.
I can honestly say that my son wants every one of these things, save accountability.
I would want him to find more "responsibility" too, for himself.
Now I am skating on thin ice. Because while I can have some control in enforcing accountability, I cannot in any way influence "responsibility" that I am aware of.
Let me think it through: taking responsibility to pay rent. That is one way.Taking responsibility to maintain clean, his environment. Taking responsibility for his money. His health. Taking responsibility for controlling his emotions and his actions. Taking responsibility for his bad attitudes. Being called on for lying. Losing ground for not being straight.
That is why we want him close. Away from us, every single one of these things he loses. And when he loses, I lose. We cannot enforce compliance. But we can set the standard of what would be responsibility, and hold him accountable.
I know so many of you believe differently than do I. I am greatly appreciative of your patience with me to clarify where I stand.
