Advice needed... sibling sexual abuse??

Discussion in 'General Parenting' started by robbo24, May 1, 2013.

  1. robbo24

    robbo24 New Member

    I would like to let you know I have been going through this with my two boys for over a year & half now. My oldest boy at 8 half had touched and shown his private parts to his younger brother who was 2 half at the time. I was distraught and got social services involved, I had to watch both children all the time and never leave them alone together, this wasnt easy, social worker put in for conselling for my oldest which it took nearly a year to get the sessions he had 13 sessions and we are no further foward, the social workers are still not sure what risk he apposes to other children, if any and now they are wanting to go into a placemet where he can get all the speacial help he needs, well this is breaking my heart and I don't know what to do for the best now do i agree to this for the sake of my yongest child? I am torn I dont want him to hurt my yongest but I love him and dont want him to go either. he is now 10 years old and he knows what he did was wrong and he promised he would'nt do anything like that again but I am not an expert in this field and are unsre what to do now, has anyone else been through this??
  2. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    Hi there. You may want to start a seperate thread. You picked up an old one so many people probably won't read it. You'll get more responses if you start fresh.

    We'd have to know a lot more about your son to make helpful comments, like if he was ever sexually abused? Is he adopted from foster care where sexual abuse is almost the rule? Has he had any other issues? Who lives with you besides your sons? Anyone? If you are divorced, do you feel that his father acts safely when your son's visit him? Any shady people in dad's life who may have sexually abused him. Sadly, kids usually act out when they have been acted out on. It is not usually because of the internet or is because somebody did it to them. Often we don't know it happened. Sometimes they don't even remember, but it's in their sub-conscious. We kind of need the back story leading up to this.

    You can not trust a child's is not worth it to get lax due to that. He really needs to see a specialist in youthful sexual issues. Can you take him to somebody privately rather than waiting for CPS? You actually should take your younger son too since he was the recipient of the abuse and it may have happened more than once. It is the norm for kids to claim it's the first time, but you don't really know that. Are you sure you can keep your youngest safe from him at all times? That means not letting them play outdoors together unless you are there. It's hard. I did live through something like this and it was horrible.

    I hope you start your own thread. You'll get many more opinions :) Welcome to the board.
  3. Malika

    Malika Well-Known Member

    Oh dear... I am perhaps going to create a little rumpus by saying that I do wish we hadn't got so manic about childhood sexuality - or pseudo-sexuality. I do not personally find an older child showing his private parts or touching a younger child to be some kind of pathological abberation that warrants social services getting involved or mass hysteria. Most kids actually do do this sort of thing. It's curiosity, it's not really anything very sinister.

    It could be more than that in certain cases, of course, and warrant greater seriousness and action. I am not being complacent and saying a child could not sexually abuse another child. But a placement??? For this single incident? That is tragic. And kind of crazy, in my book.
  4. SuZir

    SuZir Well-Known Member

    I have to agree with Malika.
  5. Dixies_fire

    Dixies_fire Member

    I haven't been through the hell mwm went through I know in that case the child should be removed.
    But speaking as someone who was molested at a younger age by a step sibling I don't think I would be able to remove one of my
    Children for a one time offense? That didn't go terribly far?

    I would do my ****edest to protect the younger child up to and including, alarms or sleeping in my room, not being alone together.

    What is going on in therapy what have they said? Is this a one time thing? Does your 10 year old know this isn't okay? Is he contrite?
    When you say therapy isn't going anywhere what does that mean? That he doesn't want to talk about it after being shamed for almost two years over one incident? I don't think I would want to talk anymore about that either.

    I understand you are probably beyond wits end but do not let them bully you into taking your child.
  6. DDD

    DDD Well-Known Member

    Sending supportive thoughts and hugs your way. I'm sure waiting until next week seems like an eternity but I would, in fact, try to maintain until that time. Actually I am wondering if there is a way to find out if the social worker is one with actual training in sexual issues OR if she is an overworked newbie who had a four hour course in the subject. Any chance your Doctor might know? Where we live some medical professionals stay on top of specialtie...but this is a small community. Fingers crossed for you and yours. DDD
  7. ThreeShadows

    ThreeShadows Quid me anxia?

    I agree with Malika.
  8. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    The law is how much older t he child is from the one he shows his parts to. Six years is the standard. And we don't know if it's one time. Since I lived through it, I think it's better to be safe than sorry. There is a need to know if this was one time or often and if this is all he did or if he did more. Kids tend to be slow to tell. Been there/done that. Find out the facts and then make a decision.

    This is not a hysterical mother or a hysterical system.

    Facts: An eight year old boy did not agree, with his eight year old friend, to "Show me yours and I'll show you mine." That is normal and consenual.

    This is an eight year old boy who made his three year old sister, who was unwilling, to let him kiss her privates then he put his penis in her face. Normal playing around? I disagree. Normal is the example above, not this huge age gap and the degree of touching an unwilling sister. One time? Maybe. It should be vigilantly explored because it could be actually more than one time and this eight year old could have a serious problem.

    As one who knows the horrors of kids facing sexual abuse from older kids, I don't think it's frivalous at all and I am puzzled that it can be passed off as such and even made light of. I hope it never happens to your children, but if it does, chances are you will not be as lighthearted about it, especially if you find out it is not just a one time experience. Picture a twelve year old doing this to your little J, Malika. Now maybe the mores are different in Europe, but I'm glad we explore things carefully here because sexual abuse is a trauma that children do not forget. This child is not playing with his peer. He is obviously forcing his sister, who is a baby, to let him do things to her. It may be the only time he did it, which is good...then he gets help sooner. But it could be that he has done it many more times. And certainly nobody wants this to become a ritual. Every sexual abuser has a first time. An innocent romp about sex is with same age peers playing doctor. Six years is a big age gap here.

    Having said all this, I do think they should find out the whole picture before the oldest child is taken to an Residential Treatment Center (RTC). But the bigger boy is now going to have to be watched whenever he is with his little sister, even if he stays home.
    Last edited: May 3, 2013
  9. ThreeShadows

    ThreeShadows Quid me anxia?

    MWM, I think we were responding to the newer poster, not the original poster from 2010.
  10. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    Seems to be a similar situation. I'd do the same thing...try to get to the core of it, find out if it has happened a lot, and get the older boy help before it can escalate. He is a eight year old who did it to a two year old. Not the same as two ten year olds deciding to show each other their thingies. The age difference is worrying because clearly it was done against the other child's will. He has been in treatment and clearly his workers still think he may be a risk. There must be a reason for that.

    The poster is doing the right thing, watching them together at all times. Other than that, since I don't know very much, I have no opinion whether or not he should be taken out of the home. Depends on why he is seen as a risk to "other children" (notice she did not just say the brother). Perhaps he hmself was abused and is acting out on others. I don't consider this hysteria. Not when a child of eight does this to a baby. Sorry, not buying it. This was against the other child's will and an eight year old is old enough to know it. There is a history here that we don't know yet.

    Perhaps your perspective is different if this has happened to your own children? I don't know. I never see this kind of this as frivalous. Malika, most definitely an older child can bully a younger child into being sexually abused. It happens apparently more than you know. And often it is kids who were sexually abused who do it, which is different from them watching sexy movies and deciding to try it on toddler brother, which I also feel is not normal, but it is not usually the reason why this is done. I think you may take it more seriously if it happened to J. and you saw the trauma that the children feel. It is a lot like how you would feel if your, say, cousin went into your bedroom, held you down and did the same stuff to you...or if this happened to me. Only you are two years old. It is against your will and you feel helpless and that is what it's like when an eight year old outpowers his three or two year old sibling.
    Last edited: May 3, 2013
  11. Malika

    Malika Well-Known Member

  12. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    I know. The mother called social services herself out of concern. I don't know if that was because of what he did or because the younger child was overly disturbed by it. Or if maybe the older brother did touch him. In these things, we never really know. The child was two years old. This child is claiming he knows better and won't do it again. I think it's best he get help to make sure he doesn't. Again, if a child does something sexual to a child of his own age, then, unless it was non-consensual, big deal. But a two year old?

    That's why social services is so concerned. Plus they are well aware that often what is done is minimized by the younger child. At two, doubt he could even explain what went down. I'm all for finding out before it's too late, even if it puts us as parents out. As for making him leave the house, I don't know enough about it to know if this is sensible or over-the-top. Sometimes social services is very silly about very trite things and sometimes they are onto something. I have no opinion on whether or not he should leave the house, but I do think this older child needs therapy as an ongoing preventative, and that Dad and Mom need to watch the kids when they are together. Kids caught sexually acting out always promise they will never do it again and say it never happened before and often the younger one is afraid to tell the truth, if it isn't. So it's better to be safe than sorry. Unless two eight year olds are found laughing naked under the covers, both obviously happy, I think all sexual behavior toward younger kids should be seen as a threat to the younger child, especially with this degree of an age difference. My rule is: If we as adults would feel threatened if a bigger, tougher man had us cornered and did the deed, then it's definitely something that needs attention if it happens to a toddler.

  13. Californiablonde

    Californiablonde Well-Known Member

    As a sexual abuse survivor by my older brother, I can tell you that you are doing the right thing in contacting social services. When I was eleven my fourteen year old brother forced me into sexual acts and threatened me into secrecy. I stayed silent and endured the pain and suffering for about a year. Then I confided in a cousin that I was being abused. She told her mother, my aunt at the time, and my aunt told my mom what was going on. My mom decided to do nothing except tell my brother not to do it again. And then I got a lecture and the question, "Why did you let him do it?" Being eleven years old and overpowered by an older bigger sibling did not allow me a choice. I fought and he won. But I still got the blame. And my mom chose not to tell my dad because he was abusive. My brother was his worst target. My mom feared for my brother's life. So she kept our little secret hidden. The abuse continued until I was about thirteen and my brother found a girlfriend and lost interest. So you are doing the right thing by confronting and getting social services involved. I know he's still your son and you will always love him, but please do not hesitate to protect your younger daughter by whatever means possible. I endured two years of suffering and it will always haunt me till the day I die.
    Last edited: May 3, 2013
  14. Dixies_fire

    Dixies_fire Member

    I was referring to the 2013 poster. The original poster in my opinion is a different story.

    What you said at first is right mwm, need more info to be helpful.

    I think it's a bad situation that they waited a year to get therapy for this.
    But without knowing what happened exactly its hard to say if its a knee jerk reaction. My 8 year old is convinced that my 3 year old boy is a pervert because he touches his penis and will occasionally show it. And his dad seems to agree when I'm pretty sure that's a normal developmental behavior, you tell him to put it away don't show it to people and he can only touch it in the bathroom. Tk thinks he's a pervert but runs around the house in a towel if she can get away with it.
    I've seen my
    Kids point and poke at each other when they were younger. I think it's situational and a case by case basis how inappropriate it is, what actions are called for. But I've never been through the full hell of that situation. As a victim of sibling touch my step was 13 and I was 6. He used his hands, it happened more than once. It was inappropriate, something should of even done after I told my step mom and nothing was and luckily it never progressed and they were divorced the same year it happened. He clearly knew he was doing something wrong. It hurt that he wasn't confronted about his behavior but I didn't expect him to be thrown out.

    Californiablonde's situation is different then mine and in my eyes more severe.

    I think it's situational. You have to know the facts. I wouldn't want someone who doesn't know exactly what happened to turn my kid over to foster care. When they haven't been concerned for almost 2 years? All I'm saying is the op is the only one who can make the determination what is really going on what happened since the original incident her older child's behavior, her younger child's behavior. I'm sure she's lost many a night of sleep trying to find out of its continued or not, and what the answer to the problem is.

    In any case you have my full support and I would not say any action that you've taken is a hysterical knee jerk one. You are your child's only advocate both the younger and the older.
  15. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    Thanks, California and Dixie. If it hasn't happened to you or your child, I don't really think you understand how upsetting this stuff is to a younger sibling. I would never make light of any sort of sexual acting out...most of the time, as in your brother, it is done by one sibling because abuse has happened to him too...but even so it's the younger, defenseless child who needs protecting. The older one needs help and some kids are not safe at home. Agree that in this case, I would leave it to the op, although WAY too many parents don't want their offending child to get into trouble so they try to pass abnormal sexual acting out as normal. There is nothing normal about a much older and stronger sibling doing this to a much younger, weaker sibling. Sure, kids the same age or a little younger/older do this all the time and it's just joking around, but that's not what is going on here. This little girl is two years old.

    I think the OP did the right thing and I hope both of her kids get appropriate help. Two years? REALLY???? Somebody dropped the ball big time.
    Last edited: May 3, 2013
  16. DammitJanet

    DammitJanet Well-Known Member Staff Member

    I was molested by a teen babysitter when I was a 3 or 4 year old little girl. From what I understand she was just sent to live with another family member to get her out of our neighborhood. She was never treated or punished and I certainly didnt receive any treatment.

    I have also been friends with a parent who had this happen in her family. Her oldest son was caught molesting his youngest step-sister but at that time they also found out that the three oldest children had been molested by a friend of their grandmothers. It was a horrible time.

    That boy was taken out of the home and I think it was for the best.

    No one can know right off the bat what the truth is about how many times something has happened. A 2 year old isnt a reliable witness and I wouldnt expect the older perpetrator to admit it. He may be scared, he knows he has done wrong. He most likely has had this done to him.