Hey, Cedar, or anyone interested in FOO (Family of Origin) issues. Cedar, WHY NOW???

[BusynMember]

Good morning, AUP! So good to see you here!

Wow, I admire how you got off medication. I can't, but there are many who can get rid of depression enough to fight it medication free. I'm just not one of them...mine is too bad; really started young.

Copa, we all know you can do it and AUP gave great ideas. Even on medication, I have to be very mindful of my mental health and do the things she recommended. Depression can swallow you up. When in the throes of depression, it is very hard to see clearly and our biggest problems (present and past) are very hard to kickbox out of our lives. Everything looks black. I think of that old song "I Want to Paint it Black." I have felt the worst of depression (not worst than YOU, but the worst I can imagine) and it is debilitating. It' s like a block on my mind wouldn't let me think of the positive. It was like being swallowed up in toxic quicksand. And, although I know this is inherited, my FOO's abuse really was not the reason I was so sad. It was my illness. Once I got on medications that worked for me, I was able to start to climb out of the hole.

When I spent those ten weeks in a psychiatric hospital (voluntary admission on my part), they would not let anyone stay in bed. You got up and joined everyone in the Community Room. That helps any sort of mental illness and depression is a mental illness or, as I like to call it (and is more accurate) a brain disorder. It's brain chemistry gone wrong. In my case, since I can't remember an age I did not feel depressed, even in my earliest years, I know it is faulty chemistry for me.

Of course, I was "baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad", not a child in need of help, but we already covered that here. And this particular post is not about that. But I do think if a disorder is treatable, it is best to treat it. Copa, you want your son to treat his disorders. Hep. B can be treated and you want him to treat it, but you do not treat yourself for your very medical depression. Staying in bed is just not going to help you change your brain chemistry. Some people can get away with just vigorous exercise...but something has to change or you will stay sick and I care too much to wish that on you.

Ok, that little lecture is over and, Copa, I hope you do not take offense. I just hate for you to be unable to enjoy your life. You have so much going for you as a person. And I t hink all of us care very much.

 

[Scent of Cedar *]

I READ JABBER'S MONTY PYTHON THREAD FIRST THING THIS MORNING. YAY ACCEPTING THE ABSURDITY OF ALL OF IT AND LAUGHING AND SAYING BAD WORDS!!! I STILL HAVE NEVER WATCHED A MONTY PYTHON MOVIE IN ITS ENTIRETY.

LAUGHTER. THAT'S NEXT.

If we ever come together as a group, we will do a Monty Python festival on a beach somewhere. White sand. After each movie, we will tumble down the beach quoting our favorite lines to one another and have a meal at a beach bar.

Whoa. Lots of coffee.

Then, back down the beach we will go. We will watch another Money Python and back to the beach bar for lunch and libation.

No coffee.

Then we will do it again and yet once more, until our final return will be under the stars with the ocean crashing away beside us.

We will toast one another with fine Scotch, except for SWOT, whom we will just toast because she hasn't been toasting and we have.

The next morning we will leave, absolutely strong and whole, forever.

That is how we will do this thing. And never go to therapy and never try to figure anyone else out to excuse them, ever again!

:O)

She would never have entered a marriage for life with a poor man, would she hav? She wants and lifetime guarantee. No returns allowed.

This morning I am done being interested in my sister. I haven't heard from her and she hasn't come calling. I don't have to be prepared and I don't care why she does what she does. I don't exactly care too much whether I should be doing anything for my mother or what to do about any of that. Not just "It is what it is." but life is filled with absurd, roaringly strange happenings and I am not immune to that.

Pretension totally sucks; whose measuring are we measuring our lives by? WHAT IS IT ABOUT THAT STUPID DINNER I KEEP POSTING ABOUT?!?

Laughter is next.

Savoring is next.

I am done with serious.

***

The following material was written before I came to this new perspective regarding absurdity and laughter and the Monty Python funeral review Donna posted on Jabber's Monty Python thread. It is better to laugh and to love and let go and never feel badly about what someone else says or thinks or does.

Life has its absurdities. Impossible, unforeseen, unimaginable things do happen.

And we do die! The most absurd thing of all.

Say bad words.

Anger is so overrated a thing.

:O)

***

So here is yesterday's posting in case it assists anyone else in their process.

No. Sister does want that guarantee and sought this particular kind of man out intentionally on an online dating site devoted to Chrisitian people wanting to get married. This man is actually serious prospect #2. Believe it or not, my sister tried to sue prospect #1 when she fell off a horse on a date on his ranch. I don't know what her life would be now, had she not married again. And she does identify herself as a deeply religious, Christian person. I don't know whether that is wrong or right or what. I do know that we work through core issues in our closest relationships. So, that is what they are doing together and neither can leave this time. So, that is probably a good thing. I think my sister has done well; I think she is trying to create family there. I don't understand why she is so insistent on excluding or usurping sibs and nieces and grands, or why my mom goes along with it, or any of those things. When I look back on my relationship to my sister over the years and see what seems to be the determined ugliness in it, I don't know what to think.

But this morning, I think absurdity is part and parcel of the thing. I think I will say many bad words and let go. But I do know that I am no longer excusing what she does when she has the power to make an actual choice.It is what it is. It is what it looks like.

Why doesn't matter.

I just keep tripping over that part.

Duh.

It really doesn't matter, though. Just as you and SWOT are doing, I am disconnecting from whatever it was that my relationship to my sister was based on.

And I will not cheat, either.

It's just confusing, that's all. The only way what seems to be happening in my FOO could be seen as a win would be if I needed to be gone for the family to come together.

So, that must be the win, then.

It would explain "What would Cedar do." That still seems like such a nasty thing.

There seems to be no answer to this ~ to what has happened here. There was a time I did not care what they did or how they felt. Other than to be available to them, I mean. I didn't think about them much at all. There were not the normal kinds of conversations, or the celebrations when babies are born and so on. When the kids fell, when I tumbled back into "emotional flashback", I may have (and you may have too, Copa ~ SWOT too, maybe) turned toward FOO for comfort. I have read on the site how much comfort there is to be taken in family who believes in you and in the troubled child. For us, that openness we allowed in our vulnerability and in our grief may have been the thing that allowed them enough access to hurt or trouble us. It is probable then that as we heal those core issues, our sisters will no longer represent whatever it is they represent to us, now.

It must be that our kids and our sisters are hooked together somehow, down in the phychic waters.

In my youth, I did not think so much about my sister. I just took care of her because I took care of everyone ~ me too. In cooking and etc, I mean.

It's like it is with our kids. We never had those things we grieve so deeply, when you get right down to it.

Probably what we are doing, here on this thread, is loving ourselves out of blame for what has happened to us, to our kids, and to our sisters and brothers.

That could be.

But here is what I forgot. Laughing is the larger part of loving.

I forgot that!

To be worshiped. Adored. With absolute powers. For life.

I don't know so much about the worshiped part, Copa. Unless you mean worshiped in the religious sense, out of fear or awe. The feel of my sister has to do with crying really loud. It has to do with crying really loud like she is broken and watching you while her eyes fill with tears until you do something to help her not feel badly. It has to do with that feeling of being able to buy things where the implication is that you could never afford it, but the thing turns out to be a sofa.

Stuff like that.

Like, I am really supposed to admire her sofa. Or her television cabinet.

It's the strangest thing.

And my mom is like, "Oh that is such a nice sofa."

This actually happened.

And like, when I went to her house for the first time after she married this man? He walked me over to a painting in the foyer and questioned me as to its meaning ~ in the sense that I probably did not know a painting might actually contain more than the picture of the thing represented. And I think he did not have a clue as to what he might be revealing about himself in all of it.

It really is the strangest thing, Copa and SWOT.

One time, my sister was on a kick about how she could feed her cats from crystal bowls if she wanted to. She told me that same story so many times.

And I suppose it feels like she has enough money when she talks like that. But this morning I am wondering whether it could not be something so absurd as that I do not feed my creatures from crystal bowls.

***

Like totally out of control grief; like never having been given enough, and like what you have given is so much less than what everyone else has given that whatever you did give was worthless.

So I don't know about worship or adore. It feels more like...more like I am King. I have the best sofa. I have a really nice thing to hold my TV. I feed my cats water from a crystal bowl. And if I am naked? It would be expected that you would not say so, but simply admire the clothing I tell you is there.

It is that kind of crazy.

It makes no sense at all ~ but remember what I posted about that rotten visit to Padre Island.

It certainly makes sense in that light.

Well, huh.

Thanks, Copa. I thought I had figured my sister out. Looks like there are still plenty of questions there and that I will never have answers that ring true.

So we will just name my sister Klingon, then. Sort of a nasty, clinging, devious King of Everything.

But...she will, and her family will, have that property.

And I don't know whether that matters, or not.

And this morning, we know that of course it does and does not.

She gained the power to buy powerful people if she wanted through her money.

Oh, that is so cool. I don't even know anyone like that.

The thing that infuriated me was this: I did become highly educated. I went to the best universities and I paid for it by working and loans. I educated myself while estranged from my family completely. '

Wow, Copa.

That is an amazing accomplishment, that you did that.

I am proud of and for you. I even like it that you are stubbornly taking your own path in your recovery.

You are blazingly strong. I mean, think about it. You are pretty much saying "Oh, man I hate this way this all is. I'm going to bed."

ROAR. I'M GOING TO BED. AND I'M NEVER GETTING UP FOREVER UNTIL I FIGURE THIS THING OUT BECAUSE THIS IS NOT HOW I WANTED IT TO BE.

Then, you forgot why you went there in the first place.

The thing is I fear Lioness that you may be like me. That there will never be a way to say STOP. GET OUT and mean it. That you would be saying it to the pain and not to your child. And it would kill you like it does me.

This worked for me: Ask yourself what you need to see from your child before you will re-engage. By re-engage, I mean money or whatever the medium of exchange between you is. For Lioness, the daughter seems to be trading in spite. In power-over. If we begin looking at our situations from our own perspectives which is how we parent younger children ~ you would never give in to a tantrumming two year old, or that is the behavior you would be encouraging ~ then we see clearly.

When we see from rejected mother/screwed up locus of control abused daughter place we all seem to have been tossed headfirst into when we could consistently not help our kids and everything kept getting worse and our stupid FOO used our vulnerability to hurt us instead of holding us up through something more terrible and neverending than anything else I know of, we are parenting from a place where success is impossible.

ROAR

Even in terminal illness, horrible as it is, there is an ending.

***

That place our abusers hurt us into believing about ourselves and our potentials, including our offspring is where the thinking comes from that our kids are not bright or strong enough to cope with their lives. They were not brought up like we were. We enable them now, as adults, though we knew better than to enable weakening behaviors when they were two because we refuse to desert them as we were deserted.

Cedar

 

[BusynMember]

And she does identify herself as a deeply religious, Christian person

This saddens me as I value any kind of deep spirituality in one's soul. How dare certain people make a mockery of what it is to have Christian values. My son Goneboy apparently believes in the entire bible except "honor your mother and father." Pick and chose. Judge everyone. But I-am-protected-because-I'm-a-Christian even if they do not share Christ's values. It makes me angry for true Christians who are good people and have to mingle with these fakes.

 

[Scent of Cedar *]

But people told me I was arrogant.

My mother believes I am arrogant. Remember the story of the red shoes and the fight between my brother and myself? That is what she was angry about; that I was making noise in those shoes instead of being afraid. In my new, Monty Pythonesque take on things, this is ~ I can just see all that playing out like it would in a Monty Python movie! Remember when they were determined to burn the witch and though they needed some kind of justification, it didn't matter what it was?!?

That's us.

We were that pretty little thing they put the witch's nose and hat on, determined to burn her because they were stupid and could not have her in the way they wanted. It is not good to be too pretty or too kind or too bright. And if you are any of those things?

One should not listen to the flowers. (That is a not exact quote from The Little Prince.)

The flowers are the things we love, of course.

That does not mean they love us.

The danger has become anything non-bed.

I understand this.

You will come through it; the move will make all the difference.

I did not go to her. I feel guilty still.

This was a post about your sister having broken her arm while walking her dog. There have been three times I did go to my sister when my mother would not. And each time, the resentment over the missing mother pretty much swamped the honor in the pseudo-mother's presence. More resentment, stored up for the future.

Monty Python, again. With just that little push? I see it; see all of it. But here is the difference this morning: I see the absurd hurtfulness and no longer feel singled out.

"One should never listen to the flowers."

We can love them if we want to. They are only flowers; they are only things we love the scent and beauty and color of. It is not up to us to grant them immortality or joy.

We are free. In our laughter, in our understanding of the absurdity of life for all of us, we are free at last.

Cedar

 

[BusynMember]

And I suppose it feels like she has enough money when she talks like that. But this morning I am wondering whether it could not be something so absurd as that I do not feed my creatures from crystal bowls.

Cedar, people who need to brag about their expensive things are diverting t he issue from their ugly souls to their possessions as if crystal cat bowls makes her a better person t han you. On w hat planet does that make one a better person?

I have never understood and never will understand people's love affair with money and topping one another. Who cares????

It is the simple things in life...the things that you can't lose even if you are penniless...that are precious to me. And it isn't because I don't have money. I could have...a very esteemed lawyer wanted to marry me in Chicago, but I didn't love him and saw some red flags in his controlling behavior toward others (and didn't trust him to keep loving me). I married a poor man over a rich man. I have never been sorry. If I had married him, I would have owned much of the apartments on the elite side of Chicago's Gold Coast I believe he called it. He told me I'd have to learn to manage the apartments in case something happened to him (stopping here to laugh myself silly at the thought of my being able to do this) and he also had many investments. He meant to leave the money to me. At the moment it was left to his ex.

So, hey, I could have fed my cats out of crystal bowls too, at the expense of marrying a rich man I did not love and probably being unhappy. He didn't want me to work. He wanted me to be home and "available to me." Ew! Red flag.

He was the lawyer who did the most divorces in Cook County, which is Chicago and all the suburbs. He was so hated by many that he carried a loaded gun to work, so he says, and had guns pulled on him a few times.Makes sense to me. He was confident, arrogant, overbearing, very kind to me, very brilliant (which I liked), but he had so many red flags.

But he had $$$.

What does that really matter?

I don't understand people. I think most focus on the wrong things. Of course, maybe I'm just plain weird. I don't remember ever admiring people for what they owned. Maybe that's my neurological difference.

If so, it was a blessing in some ways.

I get so bored and start spacing out when anyone is bragging about what they own. Tell me about you, not what you have. Although what you have often says a lot about who you are, right?

Maybe. This tired me out I'm only home from Missouri one night and am on first cuppa.

 

[nerfherder]

The Twin Poisons of Jealousy and Success.

I thought this artwork went well with the driving theme of the thread.

 

[Scent of Cedar *]

I wrote a story about those statuettes.

Venus of Willendorf, right?

How is the meaning of the Venus figures connected to the coin Jealousy/Success?

The Venus figures have fascinated me since I first learned of them. The hands are tied, the faces covered, the genitalia exposed and the figure, pregnant.

The imagery of the game board is disturbing to me.

Cedar

It just is all about locus of control. Even the Venus figures.

From which vantage point do we see what we see; how do we interpret. Just what everyone has been teaching us, all along.

Well, good for us, then.

:O)

As The Fisherman I am in a craft. Not a submarine. An open boat.

As myself, as The Hero figure, I am freely, intentionally, under water.

 

[Copabanana]

You have a multitude of good reasons to be depressed but you gotta put your boxing gloves on and fight it.

Thank you Belle

If we ever come together as a group, we will do a Monty Python festival on a beach somewhere. White sand. After each movie, we will tumble down the beach quoting our favorite lines to one another

Remember the poster who said her teenager put her 5 year old sun up to pulling a wagon filled with his sister's dolls and crying out "give me your dead" over and over? That's my saying. And I want a wagon and dolls, too.

We will toast one another with fine Scotch

Yes, I like 40 year old Single Malt.

This morning I am done being interested in my sister

Good. You are infinitely more interesting.

By the way Cedar, can you think about using another color besides lime green which is very hard to read?

But this morning I am wondering whether it could not be something so absurd as that I do not feed my creatures from crystal bowls.

Do it!!! A dollar at the thrift store.

ROAR. I'M GOING TO BED. AND I'M NEVER GETTING UP FOREVER UNTIL I FIGURE THIS THING OUT BECAUSE THIS IS NOT HOW I WANTED IT TO BE.

Yes. This is exactly right. How arrogant.

Ask yourself what you need to see from your child before you will re-engage. By re-engage, I mean money or whatever the medium of exchange between you is. For Lioness, the daughter seems to be trading in spite. In power-over

Yes. Except in my case I just want him to take his medicine.

Last night when I could not sleep I told M two things of consequence that I remember. One was I want to get married. I do not want you to leave. (The whole truth is that I was so panicked about my son that I could not see a way that I could survive alone what I am going through.) He made a joke which was not the right answer.

The second thing I told M was how scared I was about my son. He replied: Think about what you want, have a plan before we go to the Big City near us. We had spoken last week about going there and seeing to my son.

The thing is this: I don't want my son to die.

My son wants to live with us. And I am pretty convinced that once he has got his foot in the door he will want to do pretty much what he wants. And I cannot do it. I mean I can do it but it feels like it would be the death of me.

Monty Python, again. With just that little push? I see it; see all of it. But here is the difference this morning: I see the absurd hurtfulness and no longer feel singled out.

"One should never listen to the flowers."

We can love them if we want to. They are only flowers; they are only things we love the scent and beauty and color of. It is not up to us to grant them immortality or joy.

This is it. They do not get power over. Even if they want it. Especially then.

I am missing here the quote about the painting and the Christian Man. Yuck. Needing to both show off and put you down as ignorant at the same time.

My Mother told me in a phone call with her sister the rich aunt that Rose had asked her if she knew who St. John was. The clothing designer. As if my Mother would never know in a million years.

My Mother was so offended, that clothes horse she, would ever be put down like this. Like it was the worst offense she could think of. As I type this I get it even further. You attack somebody best where they live, where they are invested, with who they are. You aim to take them out where they live. My mother was most invested in clothes and appearance and money. My aunt hit a bulls eye.

COPA

 

[Copabanana]

the driving theme of the thread.

The Twin Poisons of Jealousy and Success.

From which vantage point do we see what we see; how do we interpret

makes all the difference. All along I thought the theme of the thread was love and hurt.

 

[nerfherder]

makes all the difference. All along I thought the theme of the thread was love and hurt.

We who are more whole are capable of love, and recognize hurt in others as well as ourselves. I think it's called "empathy."

Those who lack empathy, who never choose to learn how to, if not access it at least fake it enough to make it happen, can't look beyond their own successes, never acknowledge that jealousy is "You got it, I want some, and I will tear you down because if I can't have what you do, I will make your success be a little thing worth less than what I have."

The gameboard is deliberately disquieting. I have known the artist (met him once at a function, stayed in touch through common interests) and he explores through his own work the limitations our own discomforts place upon us in breaking down barriers.

I was a little worried that the piece would be removed because its imagery is so disquieting - but what I see in his piece (beyond his description of intent, found on http://www.bhelgallery.com/) is a description of the FOO members who are so good at bringing pain to those they grew up with.

 

[Scent of Cedar *]

Remember the poster who said her teenager put her 5 year old sun up to pulling a wagon filled with his sister's dolls and crying out "give me your dead" over and over? That's my saying. All I want a wagon and dolls, too.

Well then Copa? I will know you when I see you!

:O)

Yes. This is exactly right. How arrogant.

And how exactly right a thing to do!

None of this was supposed to happen. None of it.

roar

I am missing here the quote about the painting and the Christian Man. Yuck. Needing to both show off and put you down as ignorant at the same time.

Well, it was a very strange thing. It would have been quite something if we'd been able to interact as humans. That turns out to be something very hard to do. The man was very poor as a child. I should be more compassionate...I am stung and stung there, though. And that can get to be an ego thing, too. There needs to be a level of welcome and a kind of honest sense of presence for things to go well.

Best to let it go altogether, then.

I think that is the thing I don't like about interacting with my sister and my mom. (And the husband too, though he is just the husband, as opposed to being someone important like a brother or a sister.) There isn't anything real about it. Everyone is too intent on our own picture of what is happening and so, nothing is happening. Everyone is alone, checking things off on a checklist.

It is a very hard thing, to be real.

Pinocchio, right? A very hard thing to be real. Everyone sees the nose growing, but still, we defend ourselves from the true things everyone, including us, sees.

Still, I would like to not be pinched, and my FOO is very determined to pinch.

For me then, the thing to remember is to see myself through my own eyes and never theirs, and to not be foolish enough to be conceited or hurt or sly.

Which is also a very hard thing.

He made a joke which was not the right answer.

Then he has much to learn. Perhaps he needs time to adjust his responses to this new, stronger, Copa. Or maybe, he is the wrong man.

You will know soon enough, Copa.

I say M will rise.

You would not have chosen him, otherwise. That is the thing we forget. We choose those in our lives for their potentials. If they don't meet their own potentials, that is a sadness, but has so little to do with us.

We have enough to do just trying to meet our own.

Well, I do.

He replied: Think about what you want, have a plan before we go to the Big City near us.

Yes.

My son wants to live with us. And I am pretty convinced that once he has got his foot in the door he will want to do pretty much what he wants. And I cannot do it. I mean I can do it but it feels like it would be the death of me.

We had a similar conversation with daughter when she was here. All I could do was be honest to the degree I was able to. Included in that was the information about self respect, and about choosing our paths.

My Mother told me in a phone call with her sister the rich aunt that Rose had asked her if she knew who St. John was. The clothing designer. As if my Mother would never know in a million years.

My Mother was so offended, that clothes horse she, would ever be put down like this. Like it was the worst offense she could think of. As I type this I get it even further. You attack somebody best where they live, where they are invested, with who they are. You aim to take them out where they live. My mother was most invested in clothes and appearance and money. My aunt hit a bulls eye.

Ha! I thought you meant St John the Baptist.

Well, there you go, Copa. I don't know who St John is.

This morning, I am wearing silk pajamas and snowpants with a hole in the seat. In the house. That is Florida fashion combined with Wisconsin necessity.

The snowpants?

Are in your basic black.

The nightgown? Is beautifully patterned green silk with matching robe.

:O)

And I'm wearing earrings.

And I have on the sequined (hot pink sequins) sandals.

Good morning, everyone. Now you know everything.

My son wants to live with us

Why, Copa? That is where the answer is. If my kids were okay and wanted to move home to finish a doctorate or begin a business or ~ well, that would be about it. I would do that. What they want to do instead sometimes is practice their addictions in comfort. That, I will not do.

Neither should you.

If your son's priorities change, then his living with you would be a pleasant and wonderful thing. It would. It would be so great to have the kids near us, to know we were helping them achieve something so good and remarkable.

Plus, that kind of help has an end date.

Addicted kids like to play games and triangulate and they ruin everything they touch and they are dirty and don't take care of our things.

That's true, Copa.

Cedar

 

[Scent of Cedar *]

I was a little worried that the piece would be removed because its imagery is so disquieting - but what I see in his piece (beyond his description of intent, found on http://www.bhelgallery.com/) is a description of the FOO members who are so good at bringing pain to those they grew up with.

Huh.

Interesting concept ~ that there would be representations of these kinds of things that are happening in our FOO. I never can make sense of this other than that I must have done something or misunderstood something. It is the same thing that happened with my kids. I was sure they were perfect.

Well, I mean, they are, except for one or two little things.

That was a joke.

:O)

It is interesting to think these are roles, and that the patterns of everything are not uncommon. If you think about it, that Monopoly game imagery could be very much like what happened to each of us.

Is there a Get Out of You Know Where Free card?

Isn't it astonishing that my imagery should have been so similar to his?

Cedar

Except for the Go Directly to You Know Where part.

Success/Jealousy....

Jealousy is, so I've read, a thing that points us where we will devote our time, attention, and intent, next.

Success...so it would be like Brene Brown's concept of Scarcity thinking, right?

That is what the artist is trying to capture; along with the everything is a game and is more serious than we know. And then, Monty Python comes along. And we can take strength from laughter, and from acknowledging what is just true.

Maybe that is what I think I found, there.

But success/jealousy.... There are so many different kinds of success. We are the only ones who can know whether what we have done is success.

As SWOT pointed out. You must have gotten it right away, SWOT.

 

[allusedup]

Cedar, just the thought of maybe spending a weekend with all of you makes me happy. I can hear the sounds of the ocean now. I am going to start saving my money now
I have a brother and a sister that I helped raise. At 10, I was in charge of my sister and then at 12 my infant brother. Babysat, cleaned, cooked while my parents worked. I eloped at 19 and worked 2 jobs to put myself through nursing school and pay the bills because the SOB I married wouldn't work. Through the years I maintained a good relationship with my brother and sister. My sister worked and paid for most of her school and then darling brother got a free ride from mom and dad to get his masters. Now he and his wife ( she is also a nurse)are doing well and all of a sudden he is not only better off financially than the rest of us but he is wiser, knows everything and so arrogant that I would like to kick his a*s all over the place. He thinks he knows better than me how to raise my son and has even told me how worthless he was. All this before he even had kids. He told me all this durind my deep dark depression. Thanks bro. Has told me that our parents " are really not educated" now makes fun ( behind her back) of my sisters child who h as special needs. He is parenting his own kids in a way that is sure to make them hate his guts...just like our father did. What I am getting at is this...HOW DARE THEY ( my bro and your sisters, mothers, etc.) judge us or anyone else. It makes me absolutey sick. It hurt me to the core a long time ago but now I can silently say F.U!!!! And it feels wonderful. It finallygot through to me that what he thinks does not matter to me one iota. Him and anyone else that hasn't been in my shoes and walked around in them awhile. I decided that my life and my time is too important to spend even a minute worrying what him or anyone else thinks. Yes there is that initial sting, hurt but it doesn't last. It is extremely liberating to be free of that. My sincere hope is that all of you will get to that point. I must tear myself away as I am supposed to be cleaning my apt. and so far have been on here since early this morning. I love this place and all of you!

 

[Scent of Cedar *]

Okay. I got it. What I did (not all of it, but the way I was thinking and my basic motivations ~ given that I am as subject to pride and gluttony and etc as anyone ~ were good where my FOO is concerned. What they did with that has very little to do with me. When their behaviors escalated beyond that place where I could make sense of the why behind it ~ when I would have had to go along with what now seems the preferred odiferous modus operandi or do exactly what I have done in trying to figure out where we were going and whether that was appropriate for me, of course I would have to speak up and then, since no one particularly cares what I say or think about what they do anymore, leave the circle...I'm good, then.

I'm okay with this state of affairs, I mean.

Add the really horrible wondering about responsibility to an aging parent, and there you go.

I have company coming. I have to go. It is one thing to describe one's snowpants and etc, and quite another to receive company in it.

We are doing amazing work here on this thread.

Thanks, nerfherder and all.

Off to change my snowpants.

:O)

Even in Wisconsin, one does not greet company in snowpants with a hole in the seat.

 

[Copabanana]

Everyone is alone, checking things off on a checklist.

How lonely, Cedar. I would hate this and not want to be part of it. Just a group actors reading their own monologues while you the hostess jumps around trying to elicit some sort of participation like with party games at a dead party.

If you decide to see your family I hope you do it in neutral ground, like a restaurant. Or even overnight at a hotel. Better different hotels and meeting once or twice for meals at a restaurant.

see myself through my own eyes and never theirs

I think you are there, Cedar.

I say M will rise.

I think he may well have. I asked him again this morning. He said yes, right now. (That was a another joke.)

Me: I'm serious.
M: I am too. Right now.
Me: Yes. We'll go to the courthouse.
M: OK. Right now, and I with a wife.
Me: Yes. Will you get a divorce?
M: Yes.
Me: For sure? (Smiling)
M: Yes. (Smiling)
Me: Can I go and get my wedding dress?
M: Yes. While he beamed.
Me: And I sang "Here Comes the Bride." (I didn't know how to translate it to Spanish so I sang it in English.) I think he understood I was happy.

You are the first to know.

The snowpants?

Are in your basic black.

The nightgown? Is beautifully patterned green silk with matching robe.

Cedar, is it cold where you are? It is summmmmmmerrrrr. Or are you a little bit warm blooded or cold blooded or whatever it would be to cause you to wear snowpants, a nightgown and a robe (with earrings) in the heat.

It is so hot here as to be unbearable. (Actually if I make note of what I am wearing it is a leopard spotted fleece nightgown. But that is only because the one I had on stunk, and the others that fit I am using for exercise equipment for my neck exercises.)

 

[Copabanana]

I am uncertain whether to put this here or on my It Hurts to Hope Thread, so I will start here.

I just called the place where my son is and left a message with staff that it was important I speak with him. My idea is that M and I go to that City with the idea that we come to some agreement with Son about how to go forward. We would consider payee status, medical guardianship, and involving me in his discharge planning.

The hope is that my son agree that I speak with his treating Psychiatrist or agree that he see another Psychiatrist with whom I have authority to speak. The idea being that my son be evaluated for his need to have a medical guardian and to have such an evaluation in place to go forward.

As I type this I realize this is better put in the other thread but I want to put this part here.

I called M just now and I asked him if he was OK with the idea of my son staying here in our house when we go to the NEW BIG CITY. He said he would go along with whatever I decide except that I had to accept that the house would be destroyed.

The last time he stayed here alone we came back to maggots on the floor in the entry hall. I think he would buy raw meat and forget it there on the floor, discover it and throw out the meat, and leave the blood and the maggots on the floor.

We have also found maggots in a kitchen drawer. He would secret hamburger meat
there, forget about it, and come the maggots.

I asked M, then, would you consider that SON stay in the house while we go to the NEW BIG CITY and watch the animals? (This M had not wanted in the past). Yes. If you want that, I will go along with it. Are you sure? Yes.

My son adores the animals and cares for them well. The problem though in the past has been he wants to impose his rules not ours: Taking the dog to the nearby park without a leash, letting the cat out in the front yard to enjoy her freedom because she is bored, which he insists is her right as a free creature.

We live in almost country and there are a lot of predators here that could kill our cat. She is not aware that she lacks one right. She dominates me completely.

I think my son has finally accepted that we have the right to make the rules for the animals whether he agrees or not. But I do not know how that would be over an extended time alone with them.

There is no scenario that does not involve some risk to the animals. For example, poor Romy needing to go to a new home. Or Dolly who is a brachy-type dog flying in the baggage part of the airplane. Or the animals and us arriving to a city where we know no one and nothing. And what are we going to do now????

So the thing is this: If I could find a way that my son could get his blood work done and go back on antivirals, I think I could relax somewhat sufficiently to leave for the NEW BIG CITY and enjoy myself. The thing is my son's Hepatologist will not see him until October he says. I guess he blew off one too many appointments. And I think he would be medication compliant if he were here in the house and stable.

If my son were here I could find somebody in my town to monitor him and the house. We could separate off a part of the house where my son's destruction was confined to several rooms.

I am asking you what you think about all of this. I trust your judgment about going forward.

And now nearly half an hour later my son has not called me back. And if he does not, I do not know what will be my next step. Thank you.

 

[BusynMember]

HOW DARE THEY ( my bro and your sisters, mothers, etc.) judge us or anyone else.

To make themselves feel superior. That IS the point of it.

Your brother must have very poor self-esteem if he needs to elevate himself that way.

 

[Copabanana]

We are posting at such a rapid rate almost I cannot keep up.

As an aside I just spoke with a Psychiatrist who tells me that a Medical Conservatorship would not help me. But it sounds like designated payee status might.

I ...put myself through nursing school and (paid) the bills because the SOB I married wouldn't work.

Good for you Belle.

When we have done such difficult and ambitious things, it is hard to accept the limitations we come to have, is it not?

then darling brother got a free ride from mom and dad to get his masters. Now he and his wife ( she is also a nurse) are doing well and all of a sudden he is not only better off financially than the rest of us but he is wiser, knows everything and so arrogant

This happened with my sister, too. And something similar to this too:

Has told me that our parents " are really not educated"

My sister would refer to my mother behind her back as "a crazy old woman." All the while pressuring my mother for anything and everything that she could squeeze out of her. No matter how small or big. Like Chanel makeup which as an attorney she could easily buy for herself. It was about what she could get, that was my Mothers, not about what she could have.

My Mom at the end said something like, your sister always has her hands out, pressuring me to give her things. She has been relentless.

the way I was thinking and my basic motivations ~ given that I am as subject to pride and gluttony and etc as anyone ~ were good where my FOO is concerned. What they did with that has very little to do with me.

This is true, Cedar. Separating ourselves from our sense that it must have been our fault. And doing whatever it is we do to ourselves to prove that it was.

what I have done in trying to figure out where we were going and whether that was appropriate for me, of course I would have to speak up and then, since no one particularly cares what I say or think about what they do anymore, leave the circle...I'm good, then.

It is what SWOT says. Even if you do not take on the original cruelty. And you stay neutral. If you do not react. They escalate. They will do whatever it takes to get some kind of reaction. No human has that kind of control. Because nothing for them is off limits. Everything is fair game. And they will eventually hit upon something that hurts. Something that you must defend. And they will see blood. And go for the kill. There is never ever survivability here. Because they go for the kill and nothing else.

OK, let me back off from here. Maybe there is a tinge of paranoia here. So I will get here from another direction. Indirectly.

If I look at it the same thing in softer and gentler way, they are going through their lives, la la la, as they live according to their rules. But their rules are cruel and mean and small.

Eventually we are confronted with an event, something is said---and it is killing. To our spirits, our sense of fairness, offending someone we love.

So even if you take away the intent to kill, we are left with the result. Because if the rules of the game are mean and cruel. Somebody will eventually be hurt. And it is you. Or me. Because their rules are set up as Acts of War. And ours are set up as Acts of love. It is like Nerf's theme of the thread: Jealousy and Success. And mine, Love and Hurt.

It will always be so. Like this. And never, ever be different.

If it were me Cedar, I might not go to the restaurant or the hotel.

 

[BusynMember]

The hope is that my son agree that I speak with his treating Psychiatrist or agree that he see another Psychiatrist with whom I have authority to speak. The idea being that my son be evaluated for his need to have a medical guardian and to have such an evaluation in place to go forward.

Hon, until you are his legal guardian as ordered by the court, you can't talk to anyone about him and get any info back. It isn't that simple.

And you can't choose w hat Son does with his life, even if you get guardianship status. Just as we can't make our teenagers, who are still minors, do what we want them to do. We just get access to more information about things, but we can't force them to behave a certain way if they won't.

So think really hard before you go. I would hate to see you implode over a visit gone wrong. Or not going the way you hope.
I don't like the word "hope" that much in the context of "I won't give up hope." That's to me like saying I have "faith" in something I can't see or don't even know about and this goes against my grain. Even my spiritual beliefs come from my real life experiences.

We can wish that things improve, but "I will never give up hope" doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Who is Hope? It is not something that helps the other person. Or hurts them, actually. It is a wish of ours. If we give up hope, as I was starting to do with my daughter because her behavior was killing her, she could still improve and she did just that. OUR feelings about what WE want for somebody else, don't change anything.

I don't know what set off that rant...lol. I guess somebody didn't want to give up Hope (I'm naming her now. She is a person). A magical person.

What we do or don't give up doesn't do anything for somebody else's life.

Life happens the way it is supposed to happen or it wouldn't be happening...haha. Do I sound delirious? I'm pretty sure you are all ready to send the men in w hite coats.

Don't worry. It's not that bad on a psychiatric ward.

"They're coming to take me away, haha, hehe, hoho..."

 

[BusynMember]

Everything is fair game. And they will eventually hit upon something that hurts. Something that you must defend. And they will see blood. And go for the kill. There is never ever survivability here. Because they go for the kill and nothing else.

My sister tried really hard to get a reaction out of me in our last exchange, the one I still have in my computer. She called me borderline. She brought up some things I did for my kids that she felt were wrong (and probably were rather silly). She did all she could to bait me into a war of e-mails, but she couldn't. I feel very victorious every time I read that. It enraged her so much she gave me another cut off!!! That's a compliment for her. It means she lost control.

She was so used to being able to GET that reaction out of me, she just got more and more intense when it didn't happen. She didn't know how to handle it. I was so calm and proud of myself. Yes, it is hard to resist extreme baiting, but it is possible. I learned at long last.

****Bowing and appreciating the applause*******

Sorry for the interruption