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Son is angry because HE wouldn't get out of bed and wouldnt get ready for school ( his sister finally did and went I posted under Californiablondes post wasnt going to make a new one Im sorry but Im shakin up so I made a new one). So he poured Windex and body washes in the sink, broke his door further, throwing things at the window, trashing his room-literally. Also hes screaming the top of his lungs hes going to kill me he wants me dead hes going to get a knife and stab in the neck watch me bleed to death all because HE wanted to slick his hair back with water and he takes up to 5 or ten minutes to do so and he had one minute until my dad had to leave to take daughter( one car only in fam and dad also had to get pills for grandpa). He claims the school forces him to slick it back its a rule he will get in trouble if he doesnt. Umm, the rule is to have the hair "neat" and to be dressed under school code. He takes what they say about anything and takes it a step further or interrupts it wrong. Still screaming he will kill me as of now going on 30minutes I refuse to let him go in late his DR appointment is Monday thank god ..No school that day too! Well good no arguments to get up and going but yet hes with us all day...

Also, hes not caring about peeing and pooping in his pants at school and once at home, he holds it until he cant hold it, several accidents, no abuse, nothing new at school as we are doing surprise visits without him seeing us. He claims they dont let him go when he needs to. Refuses morning pill clonidine because he says hell fall asleep but Dr wont up ADHD medications untils he has the full combo of what he prescribed.. Clonidine is also being used for ADHD and Violence besides sleep issues. So his class field trip we are canceling for next week, hes grounded, and grandpa says to cancel Halloween carnival ( we dont trick or treat only one time -wont do that again)

I love my kids /family beyond words but OMG I need to take a vacations by myself for a few weeks far away ... ( Add family drama and helth issues incl mine, going in for PAP next month finally.... having lots of issues.. I do have HPV cancer strain so yeah, Im freakin out) Guess son will be happy if I do have something wrong huh?


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I hear you! I'm so sorry.
That sounds really, really familiar.
I remember one morning, difficult child wouldn't go outside for carpool. He insisted at the last minute that he wanted a snack for lunch. I had asked him just 10 min. before and he said no.
Then he started to get belligerent. He dragged it on. (It doesn't matter what the issue is; it's because he won't get up, and then he thinks of things at the last minute, and then has a meltdown because of the anxiety.)
I didn't want him holding up the other family. I went out to the van and told them to leave with-o him. Instead, the mom came in and watched us escalate. She somehow persuaded him to go with her. She's got a son who is fully autistic and nonverbal.
She actually suggested that I get on some medications because I was escalating things.
I just stood there and blinked.
I'm not saying that you are, just that it was a turning point for us.
For example, with-your son's hair, you may have to make two trips to school and let him slick back his hair with water, or carry a little mug of water in the car (I cannot begin to describe the odd things I've taken into the car to placate my son!!!). And you've got to have him take 1/2 a clonidine before school ... maybe the instant he gets up. The anxiety and stress is too much for him to handle. We think it's no big deal to slick back hair ... but to him, it's the end of the world.
We created a system where husband wakes up difficult child every morning at 6 a.m. and gives him Adderall (Concerta). Otherwise, difficult child is a beast and I cannot deal with-him. That was another turning point for us. husband finally accepted that difficult child needed medications (a huge deal for a chiro!) and gave them to difficult child himself. It made the whole day go more smoothly.
Maybe you could try giving difficult child the clonidine with-applesauce or something. I suggest 1/2 if the whole pill makes him sleepy. (Yes, they do make people sleepy.)

And on an "up" note, we have gone out of town now for 2, 3, and 4 days, progressively, and difficult child took his own medications. He will be 18 next month. When he forgets, we're not here to deal with-the fallout. ;) But we can't leave him longer than that. He just can't sustain the regimen. "I've been working really hard, keeping the house clean, doing laundry, going to school, going to work, and it's HARD!" he shouted one day. husband and I had to bite our cheeks to stop laughing. Ya think? "Yes, you're doing a great job," we said. "Welcome to the real world."


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Thank you TerryJ2-Im glad you had a mom that understood what you were going through! That must of been nice! I mean, I admit I dont act like I used to when he first started years ago acting this way.. I use to be so calm and never yell back! Now, yes, I yell back :( I do nag and tell him lets go and repeat myself so I see where Im going wrong, because neither works with him but I see your point on making it worse! And I do one of the worst things ever .. tell him hes grounded DURING a tantrum. I guess I do that because I know he will blow again after it, so might as well get it over with during. I used have the rules/punishments and rewards written in plain view but he kept ripping them down, I will keep putting it up so I dont have to tell him about groundings, just when he tries to argue it with me.

Good points about that in the car, a spray bottle may work with a HUGE velco type mirror for the back of my dads seat so he can see, Ill try try that! My dad came back for him and took him to school after I said leave him home. Anyways he used to take 1/4 of a whole pill in am and was fine, Dr upped to the 1/2 pill and I think he will be fine and again at night but a whole pill ..still wont take the 1/2 lunch pill( we cant get to his school daily like that, so Dr said right after school then whole pill bout 4-5 hrs later) Ill try again with the pills

Glad you can leave go for me too! Im glad your son is realizing how the real worl is! Glad he can be ok alone too, Im trying to have hope with my 2 kids!


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Confused, if it weren't for the board members here who have posted on the successes of their kids once they're out of the house, I would have lost my mind! Not to mention, the members who were awake in the middle of the night while I still had to vent. :)

Yes, this is soooooo hard, lol. But it feels good while you're doing it! " tell him hes grounded DURING a tantrum."
One time I yelled, "You're grounded for the rest of your life!" ROFL.
Not a good idea to tell a literalist that. :)


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Oh boy, sorry you're facing all this Confused.

I am wondering... to what degree this is to do with uncertainty and need for preparation. This is not what I do with J, so I am kind of winging it here, but as I read your post I wondered if it would help for you to sit down with your son on the night before and literally go over, step by step and maybe using pictures, what will be happening in the morning. Tight, tight routine in which he knows everything in advance, step by step? Certainly I know J is very helped by routine and predictability - not that I have been able to give him a lot of that...

I hope your weekend is manageable.

Wiped Out

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Hugs! Although we never had school refusal our mornings used to be horrible. There was a time when difficult child would try to refuse medications. His world would stop until he took them. He was able to do absolutely nothing and would lose privileges.
We also tried to make mornings go as smoothly as possible, a lot of basket c stuff if you have read The Explosive Child you'll know what I mean. We gave up trying to get him to brush his teeth or dress nicely.

Clonidine was/is huge for our difficult child. My difficult child cannot take stimulants so the clonidine helps with that but does make him tired, not as much anymore. He used to fall asleep at school but without it things were really hard.


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Thank you Terry,Malika and Wiped Out, I see all your points..

Neurologist today gave a number for a counselor/parenting classes which I have no problem getting advice for how to handle and what I can change. But at the same time, wouldn't it be better for me to know exactly what else my child has and then I go for parenting classes to better direct with the proper diagnose? He sees us back in 6 months too.. really? 6 months?


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Nope, he said " sounds like possibly conduct disorder and gave me the parenting card!!" So off to knocking on these peoples doors ( again) to find out who will actually test him for Early Onset Bipolar, and / or Other issues. Hes beyond ODD, all ODD but beyond!!! So its something else or with something else! Then add to the stress son had another appointment today for teeth and on the phone when the appointment was made, I asked do they need fathers social number they said no , we will let you know, well duh! Its a given, well I got sick going up , so my dad took him and they all of a sudden needed it! Well my dad tried to call me on the home phone and it never went through, my cell he then tried was on vibrate so I never heard it! So no appointment had to come home and the dentist was far too! Uggh!!!!!!

One of daughters teachers at her school today mentioned shes sooo quite and we said we are worried but shes not depressed, its anxiety/possible something else( we know possible but not saying anything to new teachers without tests) and she said "get her tested who cares what she says, besides we a have a few other kids like in her the school". Well, I hope they get all those kids together so they know their not alone, so my girl knows theres others like her and dont give up school!

Then add to my lovely family drama yikes!!! When do I catch a break for my kids and me?


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I actually think Conduct Disorder is a good diagnosis for him. It IS a diagnosis. These are kids who seem to have no consciences. Bipolar kids have a conscience and show remorse when they do things wrong.Without a doubt, if you search long enough, you will get MANY diagnoses. Every diagnosis, however, is just the diagnosticians opinion. There are no blood tests so no certain answers in psychiatry. Often children who act out extremely over-the-top have more than one diagnosis, at least more that are given to him. Yet nobody really knows for sure. That is the same for adults. The DSM is flawed, which is why there are changes so often. medications and medication trials are a nightmare. Most of the time the prescribing doctor is guessing at a diagnosis and really has no clue which medication may help the child. Often the medications don't. Same goes for adult patients and medications.

neuropsychologist testing can pinpoint areas of weakness, personality issues, and other stuff that point the possibility of certain disorders, but by far testing is not perfect. Sonic is one of the obvious ones, yet he got a bipolar diagnosis first. And ADHD. I have to scratch my head at the bipolar in particular. At least ADHD is similar to autism, but bipolar isn't. He has been off medications for over ten years now and has not yet had a single manic or depressive episode and is very mild mannered. WHAT WERE THEY THINKING?

On the other hand, I have been diagnosed so many things I can't remember them all because they started when I was 23 and psychiatry is still not perfect. I know I have a serious mood disorder, but don't believe it is bipolar. I believe I have/had borderline traits, but not the entire disorder (this diagnosis was never even brought up to me).

I think, as a parent who is looking back in time now rather than living through it with a young child, getting the right treatment that works is far more important than the diagnosis for a minor child. In your case, you have about five years to help your son develop empathy, respect, compassion and anything else you wish him to have. You can't do it yourself. It's not easy. It's not on our resumes. Once the child turns eighteen, the child becomes an adult and is on his own and decides himself if he wants to get help or else he won't.

I still like neuropsychs best as they do find areas of high and low function as opposed to other types of diagnosing, which mainly consists of the tired parent giving information and often her own opinion, which the diagnostician often will just agree with, probably because he has no idea. Been in the psychiatric world a long time here. It is very flawed.
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Wiped Out

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I do think he is very young to be diagnosed with conduct disorders. That diagnosis is usually made when they are older.


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I thought he was older than eight. My bad.

While CD is not often diagnosed in a child that young, I still think the best thing to do is to address the symptoms and try to help him handle his life better. I don't trust childhood diagnosis. as they often change as time goes on...and medication is handed out like candy...often with bad results. My son's psychiatrist was convinced Sonic had bipolar and had Sonic on very strong mood stabilizers and anti-psychotics with horrendous, scary side effects. And, in the end, there is absolutely nothing pointing to this 21 year old young man as having ANY type of mood disorder. So....use your Mom Gut too.

At any rate, like everyone else, I do think testing is a good idea.

Truthfully, I don't know what it is called when a child that young says the things he says and has no remorse. I don't believe that is part of bipolar. Bipolars tend to be remorseful when they have behaved badly, unless, of course, other things are also going on...

Hugs and I wish you luck in your journey.


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CD can be dxd that young but isnt normally. Check out Temper Dysregulation Disorder online and see what you think.

Personally I wouldnt worry to awful much about exactly what is wrong with him and work on symptoms because diagnosis's can change over time. Also there really isnt any pure test to say what a diagnosis is so its all subjective.

I agree with attempting to get him to take his medications before he even gets up if you possibly can. I have known many who do that. Does he have a favorite drink that you dont let him have very often? Use that. Like if he adores Strawberry Quick but he doesnt get that often then give him a small glass of Quick with his medications before he even has to get out of bed.

I dont know if you have seen them at your grocery stores but they make these things called Milk Sticks which are flavored and you put them in a glass of milk and the kid sucks up through the straw and it makes flavored milk. My grands love them.

There is also another option for clonidine. It comes in a patch. If getting him to take the pills is a pain then I would ask for the patch. Stick that bad boy on his back where he cant reach it before he gets up in the morning and be done with it.


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Your right MidwestMom, it is a diagnoses... but he cant officially put it on record, so I have to go elsewhere-again. I remember you saying about all the diagnose for Sonic, and you. Your right, a lot of different disorders can be similar, so I am going to treat him( under guidance of course until further testing with these higher disorders. I mean, it can only help either way right? Neuropsychs-Im still trying to get one.. doctors pass me to other doctors but never get passed to a neuropsychologist. I do think recording him 24 hrs a day for a while will help me with a proper diag along with proper parenting skills! So I can give that to the Dr.

Wiped Out- I do see you have to wait for a diag until a certain age, but he sure fits the bill!

DammitJanet- "This irritability is often displayed by the child as a temper tantrum, or temper outburst, that occur frequently (3 or more times per week).
Yes to that
"When the child isn’t having a temper outburst, they appear to be in a persistently irritable or angry mood, present most of the day, nearly every day."
Yes and No- He can be Irritable but can also be such a wonderful mature polite laughing child ever.Can be this way daily too.. sometimes skips a few days.He Makes people fall in love and gush how wonderful he is....
Its very similar to Bipolar.. its all confusing isnt it? I guess if I at least had a possible two diag and techniques and medications, therapy etc for him, I can better help him in a sense, because again, he will be able to get the therapy etc..

***Daughter is just acting up, her addiction to the computer /electronics is way out of control. Theres limits now, and Im getting the internet shut off at the end of the billing period. ( too expensive anyway for cable, internet-) A break wont hurt any of us. ( Luckily I have my cell to log in here) 2 hours to get out of bed ughh

***Son, also refuses to listen, the same ol, drawing on walls, our home, mailbox,breaking his door further, etc etc. Also most time 2 hours to get up. He used to like baths but is copying his sister and refuses. Double ugghs!!!!!!!! So far hes home, may go in late.