Sorry, Me Again - Advice on This Please?

[DaisyFace]

OK -today difficult child is no longer acting depressed - she is ANGRY! ranting and raving in her room again...

I guess the gist of it is that she wants a way to earn her instruments back WITHOUT meeting my requirement of knowing where she is and who she is with at all times.

I very calmly talked to her about it, acknowledged her emotions and tried to listen very carefully to the words she was using - then I would repeat it back to her to make sure I understood what she was saying.

Basically, she takes no ownership for leaving. Believes it is MY fault. AND feels that "not telling" is the same as "telling the truth" because "not telling" is not "lying"....and since she knows she will be in trouble for lying...she doesn't doesn't say anything. Therefore, I am being COMPLETELY unfair.

I stayed very calm. I told her (again!) that a lie by omission is still a lie. If you want your instruments back you are going to have to start telling us where you are and who you are with.

She says it can't be done.

At the moment, she is crying and ranting in her bedroom.

Is there a better way to handle this? or have I done all I can?

 

[keista]

Sounds like you are doing all you can.

However, I wouldn't be focusing on the "lie of omission". Technically, she has a legitimate argument. KUDOS! (stay with me) HOWEVER wouldn't she also get in trouble for going somewhere she shouldn't? I would focus on that.

She does have the makings of a lawyer. She used a common tactic of picking apart the thing you were focusing on - the lie - to make you forget the thing you can actually nail her on anyway - being somewhere she's not supposed to be.

You can completely freak her out by going in and apologizing to her and conceding that she is right, that she really did NOT lie. Let her enjoy her victory, and then drop the bomb of consequences for being somewhere she shouldn't be. Not necessarily saying to do this. I don't' know her well enough to say if it will work, and it could be argued that it's but nothing else has gotten through to her.

 

[buddy]

That is interesting Keista. I could see it working, even if you didn't say, you are right you did not lie, you could say that you agree to disagree on that and she is not going to be punished for it this time but now that she knows, in the future it will not be tolerated...and then stick to the Keista point. She was where she should not be. That is a rule, it is for her safety and safety is not negotiable. EVER.

I think you are doing an amazing job and I agree with Keista, this may not be any help at all, only you know (probably all to well) how she would wiggle out of that one.

This is the critical time, at least for me in these situations.... when I have laid out the consequence, explained the rules and the hounding and negotiating and tantrums go on and on and on wearing me down. And because MY son never holds anything in, any time I have failed he actually has said what I believe ALL of them must think..... HA, I knew I would get my way!

 

[Bunny]

I think that you've done all that you can right now. Even if you put aside the lie by omission argument, she still was not where she was supposed to be and she left the house without your permission. If she is ranting and raving you will probably not be able to get through to her. Can you just let her rant and rave herself to exhaustion?

I agree with you. She needs to tell you where she is and who she is with, but as a teenager she does not understand that this is for her own protection. I think that is pretty typical teen stuff, but given the type of kid that she is, it gets magnified, if that makes any sense. I think that this is going to become a standoff between the two of you. She wants her stuff back, but won't obey the rules of the house in order to get them, and you want her to obey the rules of the house or she won't get her stuff back. It's a tough spot to be in.

Has husband said anything about it?

 

[buddy]

Thinking about your last thread.....What would happen if you announced a family trip the time of the performance you think she may have planned to attend (can you call and ask if they got a permission for her???). THEN if she falls totally apart, you will have another example to share with her about why you need to be so careful of where she is. not to rack up points.....just to get it all out on the table.

 

[DaisyFace]

Thanks for the persective.

I already know that focusing on "lying" is not the best strategy.

The phrase I keep using is "I looked for you and you weren't there". So I'm not even making it about where she was (because I know I will never hear the truth anyway). I am trying to emphasize that I want her to get into the habit of telling us where she is going - and for that to be the truth. If you tell me you are going to your girlfriend's house - then I better DARN WELL find you at your girlfriend's house.

THAT seems to be the part that she is balking at. She wants to be able to come and go as she pleases without a word to anyone. If I ask her (which she doesn't want me to) then it will be MY fault that I am "making" her lie.

 

[Bunny]

Honestly, Daisy, I'm not sure that this an argument that you are ever going to win with her. She wants to be the one in control and she is completely unwilling to give that up to you. I'm not sure how you get around this.

 

[AnnieO]

DF...

House rule: she is to let you know where she is and who she is with at all times.

House rule broken.

The consequences are for breaking the rule. Period.

Not a lie at all. Simply a broken rule.

You're doing great, by the way. She can rant and rave all she wants, it isn't going to change things.

...At work, if she just wanders off and does what she wants when she wants, will there be no consequences? I'm still trying to get this through to Onyxx, too,

 

[DaisyFace]

Honestly, Daisy, I'm not sure that this an argument that you are ever going to win with her. She wants to be the one in control and she is completely unwilling to give that up to you. I'm not sure how you get around this.

That's it exactly. It's a stand-off - a big game of "chicken".

And that's where not eating and threatening suicide and threatening to run away come in...

 

[Bunny]

I don't know how to handle the suicide threats, but as far as not eating can you treat her like you would treat a toddler who is refusing to eat? Ignore the fact that she is refusing to eat and just figure that she will eat when she gets really hungry? Maybe "ignore" is not the best word. Maybe don't make a big deal of it would be a better way to say it.

 

[InsaneCdn]

DF...
You already know what she needs. (long-term Residential Treatment Center (RTC))
You just have no way of getting there.
What else can you possibly be expected to do???!

If she thinks HOME is tough... Residential Treatment Center (RTC) or juvie would be 100x worse.

<head-bang>||<brick-wall>

 

[DaisyFace]

DF...
You already know what she needs. (long-term Residential Treatment Center (RTC))
You just have no way of getting there.
What else can you possibly be expected to do???!

If she thinks HOME is tough... Residential Treatment Center (RTC) or juvie would be 100x worse.

<head-bang>||<brick-wall>

Insane--

You are exactly right.

I guess all this other stuff is just a barrel of red herrings/

 

[totiredtofight]

DF .. does your psychiatric hospital have an assessment line that you can call? maybe you can get her in for a stay and let them help you get her into an Residential Treatment Center (RTC). Im not sure if all phosps are the same but thats one way of doing it here.

 

[DaisyFace]

DF .. does your psychiatric hospital have an assessment line that you can call? maybe you can get her in for a stay and let them help you get her into an Residential Treatment Center (RTC). Im not sure if all phosps are the same but thats one way of doing it here.

ToTired--

This has been a long, circular, arduous road that we have been travelling since 2008 trying to get somebody, ANYBODY to refer her for placement. Sadly, that avenue has been tried and failed four times with two different phosps.

 

[Methuselah]

Daisy, your daughter seems to be a very gifted musician, who is able to play many instruments, including you. :-/

I've been reading your posts with interest, because your daughter is sort of similar to mine. Your daughter lies and blames you to get away with her dirt. She broke a rule. Period. The consequence is she has to buy back her instruments. The instruments are important to her, so you used them in the lesson you are trying to teach her. Obeying rules, living a truthful life, not manipulating to get your way are lessons she should have mastered YEARS ago, but she has chosen not, too. She knows EXACTLY what is expected of her; she just doesn't want to comply. To make sure the consequences are of the lowest impact, she will try to guilt you, shame you, manipulate your words, threaten suicide, and my favorite, not eat. And you fall for it all the time. I completely understand, by the way, why you fall for it. I do it, too. All the time! You want to believe they aren't who they are or that they are finally changing. Believe me, I totally understand. (About the not eating: You're worried and fretting about her not eating. So what if she doesn't eat? She is a physically healthy SIXTEEN year old. If she wants to starve herself until she passes out because she is mad, let her. It is like tantruming toddlers who hold their breath until they pass out. When she is hungry, she'll eat, you just probably won't see it.)

You did the smart and right thing with the instruments. She didn't and doesn't want to do the smart and right thing. Sadly, she may never, as that's the path of personality disordered people.

I'm sorry if this is harsh, especially from someone who doesn't post often; it is not intended to be. I think your reactions to your daughter's antics have been like looking into a window of my own. I think if I could shake sense into myself, I would. Hard. :-(

 

[DaisyFace]

I'm sorry if this is harsh, especially from someone who doesn't post often; it is not intended to be. I think your reactions to your daughter's antics have been like looking into a window of my own. I think if I could shake sense into myself, I would. Hard. :-(

No - not harsh. I recognize that I continue to fall for the same tricks over and over (and it doesn't help that we are working with incompetent therapists who ALSO get drawn into difficult child's world).

I need to stop. That's one reason I needed to get the instruments physically out of the house - so that I didn't have to see them day after day and feel bad.

 

[Methuselah]

Oh, I understand about incompetent therapists. :-/ I gave up on therapy. Until my daughters wish to change, I'm not hauling them around from doctor to doctor hoping for a miracle. It's a waste of time and money. Also, most therapists aren't trained to help kids like ours. They are prepared for a patient who wants to get better and is willing to work with openness and honesty. What they get is manipulating and game playing until the appointment is over. :-/ The really "good" ones will blame the parents for their child's choices and behavior, not understanding the patient has an abnormal thought process. :-/

I worked and worked on my girls. I still do, however the essence of my hope is long gone. I used to think they were on a bad path, if they were just shown the better one, they would want to be there and would do work hard on their issues to get there. But one day a light bulb went off for me: I realized they are exactly where they want to be and have no interest in changing. They will lie, con, manipulate, harm others to make sure they stay there. :-(

I have recommended "Character Disturbances" by George K. Simon before. If you haven't read this book or visited his web site, http://www.manipulaative-people.com, do so. It will be enlightening.

 

[StressedM0mma]

DF, I agree with the let her not eat. I get why you would be concerned, but, she might hold out long enough to make herself sick. Then you take her to the ER. Maybe just Maybe you could get her admitted to the psychiatric hospital then. I know it is a long shot. But... I know it is very easy for me to say from here, but let her pitch her fit. Be strong. Don't give in. Like I said very easy to say, not so easy to do. If she threatens suicide to you, will the psychiatric hospital take your word for it? When my difficult child did, I was 99% sure she was manipulating, but I took her to the ER, and the social worker there called her bluff, and admitted her. She stayed for 6 days. We were so lucky. Hang in there. I am sending you hugs.

 

[susiestar]

(((((hugs)))))

I think all you can do is stick to your guns, tell her that you realize she doesn't like it, and when she is a fully self supporting adult then she can do as she pleases. Until then, the rules are what they are.

Then I think you need to start reporting her as a runaway every time she is not where she is supposed to be. Period.

PLEASE don't give in on the instruments. If you give in on this, you will set up an even worse situation for all of you for the future. she will NEVER again take ANY consequence and she will keep pushing and pushing when you give one.

As it is, I would probably laugh if my 16yo told me she wasn't eating ever again until I gave in. I don't think either J or T would even try because I would bust a gut laughing. Mostly because mine can miss anything except food. If she is dumb enough to refuse to eat, then you will take her to the ER when she passes out and she can deal with them bringing the psychiatrists in to analyze ehr and fix her and they can deal with her for a few days. I would be clear that I would NOT visit her in the hospital except for signing her in and letting the staff know what the problems are and that she did this on purpose because you would not let her do what she wanted when and wehre she wanted with no supervision or input and she has a history of very dangerous things.

I would also make every food she hates and make SURe that she can smell them. I also know that my mom? would have put plates of liver under my bed and rubbed them into my pillow if I pulled what your daughter has pulled. I don't think ti would help your daughter to do that. BUT it DID keep me afraid of my mom - just never sure what she would or would not do.

I really hope that you can keep husband from sabotaging this and if he does? then maybe he should have to deal with ALL of her for the foreseeable future?

I am worried about YOU because I know how stressful the situation is. What are you doing to take care of YOU???

 

[gcvmom]

I think Step put it very well.

You have rules.
She broke the rule.
Here's your consequence.

It removes all the emotion from the situation.

I think you handled the exchange with her perfectly.

If she threatens to leave, she's trying to hurt you. When difficult child 1 used to say this, I would tell him that I'd have to call the police because he'd be considered a runaway (he was about the same age). He'd try to suck me into an argument by accusing me of hating him because I'd call the police and have him arrested. I'd reply by saying no, I'd be very worried about where you are, but that since I wouldn't be able to keep you safe when you're climbing out your window and running away barefoot in the pouring rain in the middle of the night, that's what the police are there for. Sometimes that got through to him. Sometimes he'd just go slam some more doors and throw some things and maybe carve another hole in his wall or slash the window screen. But you know what? Every time my husband got involved and tried a power play with him, whether it was a verbal shouting match with threats to do X, Y, or Z to him, or an attempt to physically restrain him, things got ugly very fast. Major escalation. I finally had to spell it out for husband that he could NOT engage difficult child 1 when he was in that kind of state. It would only end badly. If he wasn't up to keeping his cool and remaining unemotional about the situation, then he'd better just keep away.