What is reasonable?

Discussion in 'Parent Emeritus' started by Kathy813, Oct 23, 2011.

  1. Kathy813

    Kathy813 Well-Known Member Staff Member

    difficult child is getting out of rehab tomorrow. She just called and asked if we were coming tomorrow to get her. I explained that we were going to drive there today and leave her car and give the keys to the staff like the counselor said we could.

    She got very upset and said that she was looking forward to one of us coming and going out to eat and "talk." I told her that we couldn't miss school (husband is student teaching . . . long story). She said "so school is more important than me." Remember . . . this is the same girl that told us she was "not ready to see us" just last Tuesday.

    I think she just wants to work on getting what she wants out of us. She did say that she was going to the halfway house "like you wanted" but that there would not be a bed available for two weeks. I asked her where she was going to go in the meantime and she said she didn't know. I reminded her that just a week ago she told me that she could go stay with the loser boyfriend or the friend's mom. She then said I was being passive-aggressive.

    Here's my dilemma - - if she is going to go to the halfway house we said that we would help her financially but who knows if she will really go. Although she did drive herself to and check herself in to the rehab center. In the meantime, I told her that she would not have a phone and she got frantic. She said that she was supposed to call her sponsor whenever she had a craving and could not do that without a phone. That seems reasonable but are we being played?

    She also said that she needs to go to 90 meetings in 90 days so she will need us to put gas in her car. Again, that seems reasonable if she really goes to the meetings. She said she could get a paper signed at the meetings showing that she is going.

    We want to help her without enabling her. What do you guys do?

  2. klmno

    klmno Active Member

    It is very true that she is supposed to do 90 meetings in 90 days and has to be able to call someone. It is very reasonable to want to stay with you until the other place opens up. I don't know her, though, and couldn't possibly be able to determine if she's just giving you lip service right now, or even if she means all this now, if she'll stick with it.

    I guess you just need to decide if you want to and can give her this chance. It does sound to me like her staying with you for 2 weeks and having a phone nearby, 24/7, is her best chance for making it if she is continuing to go to meetings and does move on to the halfway house. But, since I don't know all your hx with her, I sure wouldn't blame you if you just can't or feel like you don't want to deal with more difficult child stuff. Or, if you feeli like there is so much chaos with her living with you even for 2 weeks that it would lessen her chances AND make you crazy.
  3. keista

    keista New Member

    I say help her out with these two items, BUT you can control them as well.

    Pay as you go phone. Even though there is no contract, most of them have online account access where you can monitor the calls that are being made. This also allows you to add airtime remotely.

    Gas cards. Although the gas station cards can be used for in store purchases, it limits what she can frivolously spend the money on. You can also request a mileage log from her for mileage to and from the meetings.

    Make it clear that if she abuses these privileges you'll cut her off.

    Of course, I am not speaking from experience, just thinking what I would do in your shoes if I ever end up there. in my opinion the above is a reasonable compromise.

    I am concerned about her comments.
    Sounds like she is still very much the center of her own universe.
  4. DammitJanet

    DammitJanet Well-Known Member Staff Member

    Kathy...what is your house built like? I seem to remember sometime years ago that she lived in a basement apt. Is that you or was that someone else? If that is still available I might consider that. If that isnt available I might consider the 2 week room. As for the phone? You can get a pre-paid phone if you dont want to have her on your plan. For 2 weeks a Go Phone with the 2 dollar a day plan would cost 28 bucks and you can get a no internet phone off ebay. Or she can simply use the phone in the motel cant she? Or...you can get a 50 buck prepaid unlimited everything Boost mobile and not worry about if she goes over anything. And its month to month so if she is pulling your strings, dont pay it next month.
  5. Signorina

    Signorina Guest

    After verifying w the halfway house, I would BEGRUDGINGLY bring her home, keep the car keys, drive her to and from meetings (or release the keys & phone only for meetings) and allow her to use the house phone otherwise. Can you talk to her counselor?

    That's just my initial thought-my instincts aren't very good and this is from the perspective of a mama who wants her difficult child home. So I could be very wrong.

  6. Kathy813

    Kathy813 Well-Known Member Staff Member

    Coming back to live here for even two weeks is not an option. She steals from us and is verbally abusive and we really don't see any change in her from her stay in rehab. She is definitely still the center of her own universe (love how keista put that). I think she will go stay with her friend's mom . . . the one that took her in before she went to the rehab center.

    Her phone is a month-to-month plan but we would have to pay for the month in rehab that she didn't use and then for the upcoming month. We would meet her each week to put gas in her car.

    Does that sound reasonable? Having her here and trying to impose rules would just make our lives miserable (not to mention having to watch my purse every second).

    There is one other option that she is putting forth. The friend's mom said she could stay there and she would attend outpatient counseling, attend AA meetings, and go back to her DBT treatment (that we would pay for). In one aspect, I do think the DBT program would be beneficial because she has mental health issues that are not being treated in the rehab center. On the other hand, we tried the DBT thing before and difficult child only went a few times and we ended up paying $150 for missed sessions. Why should we believe it would be any different? One plus, though, is that the substance abuse was not being addressed the last time she started the DBT program.

    Here we are . . . back in the middle of difficult child chaos.
  7. keista

    keista New Member

    About the living arrangements? Sorry I must disagree with everyone else, except for Janet's suggestion of a hotel room. NOT coming home to live with you is something you repeatedly posted on here that was a firm and clear boundary. Whatever financial assistance you were to offer was fuzzy math. Going backwards and allowing her home sends a clear message that you will not abide by any boundaries you set. While in some circumstances financial assistance can be enabling, in my opinion it's a much better prospect than allowing her home. If it comes to it, in my opinion cutting off the money flow is easier than kicking someone out.
  8. klmno

    klmno Active Member

    Both those options that you put out there, Kathy, sound good to me but I wouldn't worry too much about the DBT, either way, right now. IF she sticks with the AA/NA program and recommendations, that is plenty enough to concentrate on for a while- annother recommendation is 'no major change in life for 1 year'. People aren't cured when they come out of rehab- it's the start of the journey, not the end, so 1) it could only be expected that she's still the center of her universe and rehabs usually teach you to stay focused on yourself (in a healthy way) for some time to come, 2) I would caution about trying to 'mix' another therapy focus in while going thru a transitional period of coming out of rehab. Sometimes it's best to get on a little better footing with sobriety/drug-freeness first.
  9. DDD

    DDD Well-Known Member

    Kathy I can only imagine how you feel as one chapter turns into another chapter and then so on and so on. I'm glad that coming home is off the table as you guys have been there done that too many times. Has the counselor provided any input as to the reality of her two week bed wait? Sorry...I just don't see how that could be "set" with-o verifying info from the counselor or the alledged placement. Perhaps (if there is truth in her statement) there is a two week wait for the facility she wants to go to but...from the list you have perhaps there is another placement that could be used for the two week period? Somehow I doubt that the sober house would not have been working with her to find any safe placement upon discharge. If the counselor won't verify can you place calls to see where openings exist now?

    I'm on your team as always. Check and verify seem like the key words for today. Hugs. DDD
  10. Star*

    Star* call 911........call 911

    I asked my son a question one time when he was starting to "get it" (it being the I'm now an adult who is responsible for my decisions and the fallout et all of my decisions) - and I said ----

    "As much as I care for you and love you.....I think it's time you put your big boy pants on and started asking yourself some really hard questions. Firstly - If I were not alive - WHOM would you depend on for gas in the car, and the cell phone? Seriously - Let's pretend I'm not alive because when you are off doing what YOU WANT to do? You don't need me for anything and made that very clear. So let's just take it a step further - You behaved like an adult then, but NOW you want to be a child and have Mommy do things for you? What's your game exactly?"

    He stated everyone needed help now and then......

    Okay - fair enough - but 20 times out of 19 - when I've extened my hand (and no I did not get my math wrong) as I've extened a hand when asked or when I felt a Motherly urge without being asked.......I got it slapped....so I'm really not into getting another slap. In that realization? THIS time - may just be the time that you have to do THIS (whatever your daughters THIS is) mostly on your own......since you're asking for help (think about it) I'm able to-.........(pick one ---not solve her life crisis) 1.) Get her a prepaid cell phone that has JUST enough minutes on it to call for help to a sponsor. Doesn't need a 400 dollar Iphone with unlimited minutes, texting, web - and by the way - if she's on Foodstamps? There is a FREE prepaid phone out there FOR HER.....via the government. It's not phenominal - but SHE CAN APPLY FOR IT and GET IT FOR FREE montlhly. Trust me---it will serve her needs for sponsor cries, and rides to the meeting JUST FINE.

    As far as gas money?????? Well if you were dead (again hypothetical) HOW would she get there? She needs to think past - MOM AND DAD TO THE RESCUE - while I blah blah blah.......What her mind SHOULD be on is OMG I'm done with rehab......HOW am I going to get to XYZ.......THAT is HER problem. An occasional $25 here and there? On a gas car - that YOU TAKE HER TO THE STORE AND PUT IN HER CAR and DO NOT HAND CASH?????? YUP - all for it. OCCASIONALLY - but handing cash? Nope. She gets frustrated? No more help.

    With regards to everything else? These were HER choices that got her here.......and true she DID drive herself there........but the little spoiled girl bit about I guess you care more about BLAH than you do about me? OMG I wouldhave so hung up the phone but before I did I would have said "VERY MATURE ATTITUDE - call me back when you can discuss things like an adult." The thing is ----our kids can be mature with the world.....they just seem to be big babies with us......and manipulate us. If we let them. Boils down to ------their choices...and our choices. The tougher I was with Dude.......the less I've done for him? The MORE he's had to do for himself. Bottom line is.....it doesn't matter if he liked me the last three years.......but after those three years......I think he's liking himself a whole lot more.

    Mostly because - I DIDN"T FIX IT FOR HIM..........he fixed it for himself. And in the mean time/ I got on with my life best I could.......and leaned on my friends and family as I needed. Wasn't easy - not at all. But it's a lot easier today than it was three years ago with me running my life and ........his.
  11. toughlovin

    toughlovin Guest


    What is reasonable is what feels right to you and what you would feel good about doing. I would check with the counselor about the sober house and when it would be available. That two week lag seems off to me. It would be better for her to go directly to the sober house from treatment if possible and i would ask if there is some option to do that.

    I am glad you have already decided to not let her come home and are clear on that.... That sounds like a recipe for a relapse for all of you.

    As to what i would do personally.... I would pay for her phone both to reach you, reach her sponser and in general safety....sure she could use it to make drug deals but we cant make all of our decisions based on trying to avoid her making bad ones. There are good reasons to give her the phone.

    I think i would also buy her gas so she could get to meetings...seeing her and filling the tank is the way to go.

    I would also take her out to eat and to visit when it works for you. Giving her some emotional support while shenis working on recovery is a good thing. If she gets manipulative and demanding then leave. It might be worth waiting until she is in a sober house so it is not about her trying to come home. And by the way if you are paying for the sober house pay them directly, do not pay her.

    As far as DBT therapy i would pay that too, if she is ready for it and it is appropriate.

    My philosophy with my son is that i am willing to help him help himself and to me treatment and therapy falls into that category.

  12. DammitJanet

    DammitJanet Well-Known Member Staff Member

    Star and DDD make some very good points. That two week lag do seem a bit off and I would verify it with everyone just to be sure. Honestly, I would not even go there with the DBT stuff now. Like KLMNO said, she has started with the rehab, continue with that. DBT is good and all but it isnt the end all and be all that is going to magically turn her around.

    Star is also right about the safelink phones. She doesnt even have to be on food stamps, she just has to be low income. Or it can be a company called assurance I think. Cory has one and its only 250 minutes a month and he gets by just fine on that because its free and he used to be my phone hog.

    It is so easy to get wrapped up in our kids problems. Its hard to know when to step in and when to step out. I am thinking back and I realize I havent given Cory any money since I helped him move out last March. I did buy the AC but that wasnt cash and I didnt give him anything for his birthday after that. Havent a clue if you consider buying baby clothes helping or not. I think if its something I want to do and I am not asked or coerced into doing then it isnt enabling.

    I think that is what you need to decide. If there is something you want to do for your daughter and you would do it with free will and would feel fine with it no matter what the outcome, then do it. If it is going to irritate you if what you give her is used for the wrong things or she loses it or whatever, then you shouldnt.
  13. Nancy

    Nancy Well-Known Member Staff Member

    We have agreed to continue paying difficult child's cellphone for several reasons, safety being one. It is true they are suppose to call their sponsor frequently and she may also have to call for rides to AA meetings. In the sober houses here they are not allowed to have a car until their restriction is over, anywhere from 30-90 days. So they have to make contacts at the meetings and call for rides. I'm surprised they won't get her into the sober hosue sooner, even if she has to go to another house first until the bed opens up. Also people come and go in these houses daily so for her to say two weeks seems strange to me. Can you call the house and verify this info? In the first sober house e was not allowed to have a phone for the first 30 days either. They are suppose to concentrate solely on their sobriety.

    As for the gas, can you get her a gas card and send it to her so you don't have to meet her every week and have her suck you into anything. We have decided to help our difficult child financially with just the basics as long as she is following the program. If she doesn't then she's on her own and most likely will be on the street.

  14. Kathy813

    Kathy813 Well-Known Member Staff Member

    I can call the halfway house tomorrow to verify difficult child's story. I think it may be true, though, because I called some (not the one that the counselor wants her to go to) before she went into rehab and there were was a waitlist for every one of them. In one case it was nine months and another was two months. There was a one week wait for a bed to open where she is now. I was told by one of the halfway houses that there aren't many places that take women. I don't understand why.

    I think we are comfortable with paying for the next month for the phone and putting gas in her car once a week for the next two weeks. If she doesn't go into the halfway house at that point, we will not pay anything else.

    The past four weeks have been wonderful. I have this feeling of dread now and the nerves are back, too. Is it awful to resent my difficult child for the chaos she brings into our lives?
  15. DDD

    DDD Well-Known Member

    Of course it isn't terrible. I think all of us resent that our lives have been altered by our difficult child's. There is valid reason to feel that way and at some point we each have to draw a line based on the reality of our situations. The grey area is different for each of us, the time to detach comes sooner or later depending on personalities and circumstances but once you have tried everything you and the professional know that you can try...it's time. Many hugs. DDD
  16. DDD

    DDD Well-Known Member

    by the way, her discharge date has not been a secret. If the facilities have wait lists she and the counselor should have made a move weeks ago to assure placement. It is not your fault. I'm assuming that she waited until the last minute in hopes of coming home. Sigh. DDD
  17. Kathy813

    Kathy813 Well-Known Member Staff Member

    DDD, I think that you are right! I also think that the counselor expected difficult child to make the call and get a placement. I remember the social worker from the p-hospital telling us that the halfway houses didn't like taking patients right out of the psychiatric hospital. They wanted the patients to make an effort themselves to show that they were serious about recovery.
  18. Nancy

    Nancy Well-Known Member Staff Member

    It's a shame they don't have more sober houses in your area. We seem to have enough to accomodate everyone that wants to be there because there seems to be no wait, or else they are taking in more people than they should. Many residents come right from the treatment center that difficult child was in because they feel it's best to go right from treatment and not go back into their former environment.

    It is not awful for you te resent the chaos difficult child brings to your life. I feel the same way and that's why I will never again allow her to do that to our family. I am very protective of our peaceful life now. I will help her only so far and only when she is acting appropriately. We support her when she is making good choices. Period.

    I'll be thinking of you tomorrow and hopeing she follows through on the sober house.

  19. Kathy813

    Kathy813 Well-Known Member Staff Member

    difficult child called me "cold and calculating" on the phone today and I am afraid that she was right. I find myself holding back and staying detached but not in a good way. I am afraid to show any emotion because I know that difficult child will jump on that and manipulate her way into getting what she wants. I would love to hug her and tell her that I am proud of her for going into rehab but I am afraid she will turn right around and say then why can't I come home.

    So I am keeping an emotional distance which makes me feel bad but it is all I can manage at this point. I have so much anger and resentment for what she has put us through. Sadly, she still doesn't see why we would feel this way and just translates it into proof that we are bad parents and bad people that don't love her.

    I told her to call me back tonight after she figures out where she is going to stay and is less emotional and we would talk about the phone and gas for her car. So far, she hasn't called.
  20. Nancy

    Nancy Well-Known Member Staff Member

    Kathy I'm so sorry. The treatment center difficult child was in helped with that because they had sunday family day where families came in and they split the residents up in group and there were maybe 8-10 families in a group with a counselor. The entire day was spent allowing families to tell their person what their disease has done to them and the family. By the time she left there we had attended 9 such sessions and she was under no illusion as to how we felt or why. She was forced to see that it was her behavior and actions that caused us to not trust her or to guard against getting hurt any further.

    How do you feel about writing her a letter and saying those things to her. Let her know you love her and want to support her sobriety but that her former actions have made it impossible for you to trust her or for you to allow her to manipulate you any further. That it will take time for trust to build up again and that it is up to her now to prove that she is serious about her recovery.