You know, I think PE is exactly where this whole drama with Buck should be

Discussion in 'Parent Emeritus' started by DammitJanet, Jan 18, 2013.

  1. DammitJanet

    DammitJanet Well-Known Member Staff Member

    Tony and I went out today to run some errands and we ended up having lunch out while doing it. Of course talk turned to Buck. Mainly because he called and had to ask to go back in the house because after he had left this morning for TN he had to turn around and come back because he had forgotten his work boots and winter coat. Heaven help him, he isnt armed mentally to set out on his own. He needs a keeper.

    I asked Tony if he had a clue where Buck was even going and if Tony knows, he isnt telling me. Supposedly Buck is meeting up with a guy just outside of Charlotte tonight and tomorrow they are leaving for TN. I dont even know if Buck's car will make the drive. Its an old Sunbird. One window is filled in with plexiglass. Buck really isnt physically able to work a construction job if he told these people he was a drywall mechanic. The best case scenario you could call him is a helper and he really isnt much of one of those. He is more of a cleaner who sweeps up after the guys and picks up trash. He simply is too slow. He gets lost in space and cant keep up with what the actual mechanics need. He keeps people waiting on him to get them product. It makes people mad. He wont last.

    Then what? I posed that exact question to Tony. I told him that I am not letting Buck come back to our house except to stop buy with a Uhaul and get his stuff. Tony thinks we cant just do that. I am of the mind that you cant just keep enabling a person of his age to not take responsibility for his life. At some point he has to learn to stand on his own two feet because he knows that there isnt a safety net called his family. Tony and I dont have anyone to fall back on. Buck certainly isnt going to take care of us. The money he owes us is now gone. We have to write it off as a loss. Tony will never let Cory off without paying him the last 80 bucks he owes him but Buck just walked away owing us well over 500, probably more that I dont know about. I know about 800 and tony has told me he paid back 300...I dont believe he did but I have to take Tony's word. I know he paid Billy back 40 and I saw him pay Tony back 70...thats it.

    Then Tony wanted to try to lump Buck in with Billy...I was actually fine with that. I said I agree that at Billy's age he should be gone. I think he should have been gone several years ago. It is Tony that has put this off.

    I think Tony is having a very hard time with the letting go for some reason and Im not sure why. I said I was going to book us on Dr phil and he is convinced dr phil would say I was wrong to not allow Buck to stay with us. I dont get it. I dont think he would. Even if Buck was mentally retarded it would be within our rights to find him a home for people like him. It isnt our responsibility to take care of him.

    I know TN isnt going to work out. Without a doubt. I do have a plan though. I am going to give it about a week or so for Buck to get there and all and then I am going to go into Tony's phone and fix it so that Buck's number is blocked so he cant call in anymore. He doesnt know my number. If I block the number it will also block texts.

    I did tell Tony if he comes back here I will be finding him some sort of sheltered group home for mentally handicapped people because I am not doing this again. I will drag Buck kicking and screaming to get a psychiatric exam in order to get deemed eligible. I know he will meet criteria.
  2. buddy

    buddy New Member

    I was thinking exactly that too. He is clearly impaired and needs outside support. Tony can support him without directly carrying for him. I worry though that Tony will block you as he always does. if he lets buck in what can you do about it?
  3. InsaneCdn

    InsaneCdn Well-Known Member

    Janet, I think that statement tells a LOT.

    You are not out to destroy Buck - or Billy for that matter.
    But you don't have to let THEM destroy YOU, either.

    Get help for Buck? Now that's quite a concept. Of course... if he is anything like certain people I know (extended family), he won't be very open to that because... well... "they might think he is retarded or something."

    (direct quote from a person I know, who was refusing some medical evaluation not even related to his state of mind... because he didn't want anyone to know that he had mental issues... even though all of his dxes were given accurately in childhood... )
  4. DammitJanet

    DammitJanet Well-Known Member Staff Member

    Oh Buck absolutely believes that way IC. He has made fun of people who take psychiatric medications for years and laughed at me when he came here because I openly talked about going and getting my psychiatric medications. I am not ashamed that I take medications but I dont like to be called names for it. When I found out that several of the medications he was prescribed were psychiatric medications he got really mad and stopped filling them even though the doctors kept writing them. He said he wasnt crazy like me. Oh bs.

    Already since he has been gone he has had to call Tony because his headlights went out and he needed to know what to do. This doesnt bode well. Its like sending a 14 year old out there on his own for the first time. And lets remember, supposedly he has been on his own for years. Lived in CA, LA, Vegas, and I dont even know where else. Im not sure I believe it.
  5. DammitJanet

    DammitJanet Well-Known Member Staff Member

    Well who knows how this is all going to go if Buck doesnt make it in TN. I realize I seem to have conversations at the most odd times of the day but that is when Tony is awake and actually talking to me. Trying to talk to him at night is pointless, he falls asleep on me as soon as his head hits the pillow.

    I was trying to look up some types of places that I would hope to get Buck into should he end up back here but after reading up on them I am not sure I could actually get him in. They are all for daughter/MR and those diagnosis's have to have been given by age 22. He wont qualify on that alone. I have no idea if I could get him into one for brain damage. I absolutely know he wouldnt agree to a sober living facility because he refuses to say he was ever an addict...or what he actually says he ISNT an addict, he quit on his own. When I point out once an addict, always an addict he just laughs at me and says Im more of an addict than he is even though he abuses his pain pills and I dont.

    Anyway, Tony actually laughed at me for even considering a supported living facility even if I could find one because "Buck would have to agree to it." I said well exactly what is he going to do if we dont let him in the door? Will he not have to accept the support that we have found for him then?

    Tony then said that I just dont understand why he does this for Buck and that he really does understand why. I said Tony, I would do this if I did have a sibling and they were continuing to be like this at his age. Then he threw up Billy. I said Tony, if Billy doesnt leave soon, I am going to have to force the issue. I think I am going to have Billy go in the next few weeks and apply for section 8 housing. I think that might be a good way to go. Rent would probably be at least a little bit subsidized in our area especially if his girlfriend came up to live with him.

    But even though I do complain about Billy he does step up at times. Evidently Mandy has been snitching the money Cory has been giving her to pay some of the bills at the beginning of the month. That may have been a good part of the fight. He found out that his power bill was on cut off and he had given her the money to go pay it at the beginning of the month. He had been doing that every month. Suddenly they got a cut off notice this month. Which means that she didnt pay all of December and then in January she didnt pay it at all so he got hit with the cut off from December which was due on 1/17. He had given her the money to pay what he thought was January's bill the first week of January. She evidently pocketed that money. Cory had to call Billy and ask him to put that Bill on his credit card and Billy did it for him because he didnt want to see Cory and the baby in the dark and the cold. Mandy he couldnt care less. However Cory is broker than broke.

    Buck would never help anyone else out. In fact I once asked him about all this time when he goes to church and he throws it in our faces, I asked him if he tithes or puts money in the plate each week. He did his idiotic laugh and said oh no, he cant afford to tithe or put money in the plate. I looked at him funny and said you dont put even $5 bucks in the plate each week after all they have done for you? He said no, just going there is enough. I said hmmm, that just doesnt seem right to me. He said well you dont even go to church so you cant say nothing. I said well you dont have to go to church to have a relationship with a higher power. I happen to feel like I am doing good things for people who are in need. I have an ongoing deduction to two charities and I will donate to tragedies when they come along like Hurricane Sandy and things like that. I asked him, did you happen to put change into the Salvation Army kettle when you pass them by? Nope. I said Buck, it sure doesnt sound like you possess the Christian spirit to me.
  6. InsaneCdn

    InsaneCdn Well-Known Member

    Billy definitely is more human than Buck. But it doesn't mean that Billy doesn't need the boot as well... just a more gentle one. Billy is taking advantage of you. Buck... is downright abusive.

    You don't need either one living with you.
    But... the lesser of two problems is definitely Billy
  7. HaoZi

    HaoZi CD Hall of Fame

    OoOoOoOo I shake in rage with you Janet. Buck is a real piece of work. I'd have had a major PMS + shotgun psycho moment long before now.
  8. rejectedmom

    rejectedmom New Member

    Janet. Buck is definately an adult difficult child so maybe this is the place to post about him. I totally agree that Buck is a lost cause that just takes advantage of anybody who lets him. I agree that he needs to be out of your life and hooked up to some MH program for adults. That said, I do not know how you can possibly get him there even if you do all the ground work.

    I have a thought though as to how you might get Tony to not let him back into your home. While Buck is gone how about trying to make the time so good for both you and Tony that Tony notices and realizes that Buck is a major stressor in his life. Do not speak of Buck at all during this time, just make life peaceful and nice and spend enjoying times with your hubbie. If Tony brings up Buck just say "lets not talk about him now he isn't here and we will deal with him when he is." Maybe just maybe Tony will see how nice life can be without Buck in it.

    I have learned a couple of things in my 60+ years. Two of them are: 1) Men hate being told what to do. and 2) They like fixing things. Sometimes in order to get what we women want and need, we need to use this insight to our advantage. We have to figure out how to make our men want to fix the same things we want fixed, without actually telling them what to do. At times it takes some creativity and I think this is one of those times. -RM
  9. DammitJanet

    DammitJanet Well-Known Member Staff Member

    RM, you are a very smart woman.

    In the past several weeks prior to this all blowing up in our faces, Tony and I had started to really work on things and were slowly getting back into our old patterns. We have a lot of things to work on. Neither of us take rejection or criticism well at all and we get angry at even the hint of it. For some reason now he is really hitting me below the belt quite often now about my parents both being dead, being an only child and all my extended family having anything to do with me. Well my extended family all lives in New England and for some reason my father kept me away from them from the time I was a late teen. Probably because I was a difficult child and he was ashamed of me. Now I cant get up there. I went up there in 1999 and they met Tony and my boys and were very happy to see us. They are all just closer to each other because they all live within 20 miles of each other and have all their lives. Not my fault.

    Heck its not like he sees his family every day or even every year! He doesnt even talk to them monthly. He can go six months and not talk to one of them unless something big is going on. We see his youngest brother maybe once every year..or so..maybe once every other year.

    I think Buck got him on the family thing. He never thought anything about me being an only child before. In fact when we were taking care of my mom he said he was glad I was an only child because if we had to deal with siblings it would have been so difficult with all the decision making junk.

    One of the things that I am a bit upset about is I am wanting to attempt to work on getting my house cleaned up as I feel up to it and now I have my dining room filled with Buck's junk. And its not just a few things, its a complete household of furnishings. His bed, his kitchen table, about 8 of those large rubbermaid tubs filled with whatever, a bunch of other stuff stacked up all over that stuff, chairs, and whatever else is in the pile. It goes up my wall the height of a queen sized bed and out about 3 feet..maybe 4.

    I had plans to look for a used piano sometime this spring to put in that spot. My desktop computer is on the wall opposite all this. I have an old sofa on the adjacent wall and a hutch on the opposite wall next to my computer. There is very little room now in that dining room. We will not be able to tear up the carpet in there without hauling all his junk out of there. Of course we werent going to be able to tear it out without moving our stuff either but we have less in there than he has all together. We have deliberately kept very little in my living room. I know its going to be a problem. My suggestion was to tell Buck when he calls that we would get him a small storage place and he could send the money to pay for it. One for his stuff shouldnt be much but if he didnt send the money to them, then he would lose it all. I wouldnt mind paying for the first month and sending him the key. Tony doesnt like that idea.

    Im still trying to understand why he thinks we need to baby and take care of a grown man. Especially a grown man we didnt give birth to. I do sorta understand why he feels the need to keep Billy here. I think he feels very guilty over some decisions we made when Billy was a child. We made one very bad decision that ended up with Billy living with my mom for most of his junior and senior high school years. If I had known then what I know now, it wouldnt have happened. Also we completely missed the aspergers. We knew something was different but we had no clue what. We had never heard of aspergers, never knew of autism except the classic type. He certainly wasnt that. He had a diagnosis of learning disabled but gifted. We just thought he was socially awkward too. We kept trying things to bring him out of his shell. He retreated more and more into books and gadgets. I was too busy with the other two and then he went to my mom's and we missed it with Billy completely. Maybe if he had been with us, we would have seen it before. Maybe someone in our family therapy sessions would have spotted it.

    I can see where and why Tony feels guilty over that. We did spend a lifetime doing everything we could for both Jamie and Cory but we missed it with Billy. It cant be said we didnt do our best with the younger two but we did fall down on the job with Billy. And he will tell you that.
  10. susiestar

    susiestar Roll With It

    RM has some very good insights into men. It took me years to figure out how to get my husband to fix anything.
  11. HaoZi

    HaoZi CD Hall of Fame

    You just described ME. And I spent most of my years from 6-17 in therapy with psychologists and psychiatrists (one of whom had formerly been my pediatrician as a kid and I adored her). I was diagnosis's as "borderline hyperactive gifted" with an unwritten diagnosis as PITA. And I'll tell you from dealing with Storm now, it's STILL not on most pro's radars. I got my diagnosis when Storm did, just verbally, from the doctor who tested her, because a written diagnosis would do me no good at this late age when I've managed to develop coping skills already.
  12. DammitJanet

    DammitJanet Well-Known Member Staff Member

    I actually think a diagnosis would help Billy. He is so far from hyper it isnt funny. He is a slug. If we hadnt forced him to move, we may have left him in one of our old apartments and forgotten him. He was that still and quiet. Trust me, when you are dealing with two very hyperactive and out of control little boys it is quite easy to think the 3 years older quiet one who appears studious and well behaved is normal. We never had to raise a hand to Billy. I think we spanked him twice in his life and that was back when he was a toddler. I think the first time was when he went to stick something in an outlet and I smacked the back of his hand saying NO, it will bite you and the other time was when he almost went into the road. The rest of the time if you yelled at him it had the same effect of a spanking.

    There were two things that really stand out that should have been neon lights but I didnt know the diagnosis. They are identical examples of the same type of thinking. One time I had gone to the grocery store and Tony was home with the boys cooking breakfast. He was cooking bacon on the stove. He came out to help me and he told Billy to watch the bacon for him. So Billy stood there and watched the bacon. As we came in the house we smelled the bacon burning...There was Billy standing in front of the stove staring at it spatula in hand. Tony takes the spatula from him and in awe says Billy, why didnt you take the bacon off the stove? Billy says...well you said to watch the bacon, you didnt say to do anything else with it. UGH

    Another time I had to run Jamie up to baseball practice at the elementary school just up the road from us. Cory was sick and I asked Billy to watch him while I was gone. I wouldnt be more than 10 minutes tops. Probably not even that as the school was only about a mile and a half each way. As Im driving home I see Billy and Cory walking along the road towards the school! I pull over into a driveway along the road because there arent exactly good edges along this road and get them into the car. Billys answer...well Cory wanted to go to where Jamie was so I was watching him go!
  13. InsaneCdn

    InsaneCdn Well-Known Member

    Janet... this is going to sound off the wall... but go google it.
    You say Billy is the polar opposite of hyper...
    Maybe he has gluten intolerance?
    Some people, it affects the gut.
    Others... it affects the brain.

    The other substance that can do either of those is... milk protein (casein)

    Maybe he needs to try going girlfriend/CF
  14. DammitJanet

    DammitJanet Well-Known Member Staff Member

    Oh at this point Billy is claiming he cant eat anything dairy or eggs. For years he ate cheese, ice cream and milk on cereal or milk shakes like cows were a dying breed.

    He actually has a pretty narrow diet. He has only added a few things to it in the last couple of years and that is lettuce. He will now eat lettuce and ranch dressing. He will buy those premade salads and remove the tomatoes and onions and cover them in ranch dressing and call that a salad.

    Normally what he eats is hot dogs, corn dogs, hot pockets, frozen pizza, canned ravioli, and other things he can microwave if he has to fend for himself. Or he eats out. Now if we cook he will eat most anything except for anything that has beans, onions, or obvious eggs in it. And now he is boycotting cheese and tomatoes. He also complains about fried foods now but it doesnt stop him from eating a ton of it.

    I dont think he could manage to not eat gluten and not eat dairy. Heck he claims he isnt eating dairy but he is. He just takes those lactose pills.
  15. rejectedmom

    rejectedmom New Member

    Janet, My easy child/difficult child is an aspie he is 30 years old and was hooked in for his entire life. (early intervention started at 16 months full time 5 days a week) His diagnosis was PDDnos, dyslexic, speech impaired, executive functioning disorder etc. It was never Aspergers. I think it was because back then you were either classic Autistic or you were not at all. The spectrum idea only came into effect in more recently. So please don't feel guilty about not catching it in Billy. Even if it was a diagnosis that was being made when he was younger it could have been missed. When they function within a normal range no one looks much further.

    Would you believe that my easy child/difficult child was in PT and Occupational Therapist (OT) till he was in middle school ( inmore than one facility) and no one picked up that he could not rotate his hands to palms up. He used to twist his arm backwards to have you pour M&Ms or such into it. We all thought it was because of his spacial difficulties. He was in his first year of HS and he was geting into trouble for not doing his chin ups right when we finally realized his orthopedic problem. When we asked him why he never told anyone that he could not rotate his hands he said he thought everyone was like that. Lack of observation on his part for sure. LOL We immediately took him to the ortho and got a note for gym and pulled him out of his black belt classes at the Dr.'s advice. The doctor said he would end up permently damaging his shoulder if he continued karate. He manages this problem well but it was hard on all of us at first because it left all the trades out of his possibilities for a career which was the track he was in in schoo.l We had to change everything to make him on the college track and get tudors for him and sumer school to catch up. He did it and even graduated college with honors but couldn't get a job in his field because he doesn't interview well. -RM
  16. DammitJanet

    DammitJanet Well-Known Member Staff Member

    Oh Billy interviews horribly. Tony actually found him a job through a contact he knew at work and the man was willing to overlook his idiosyncrasies because the job would have been right up Billy's ally and he really wouldnt have had to work with very many people. It was a job combining his two degrees he has gotten...the computer degree and the HVAC certificate. He would be working for a company that installs climate control systems in business's but he would be responsible for the actual computer boxes.

    The guy told Tony to tell Billy NOT to go online and fill out the application but to come into the office and talk to him. What did Billy do? He went online and filled out the application. Then he tried calling the company and couldnt get past the receptionist so he gave up. He never did drive down to the company to even attempt to talk to the guy who told him to come see him. Tony was so ticked off that he said he would never try again. Its more than obvious he doesnt want to listen to us.

    I actually talked to a guy at Office Depot when I was in there buying something and mentioned to the guy that my son had a degree in computer networking and the guy was very excited and asked me if he was working in that field right now. I told him no, he was working for Radio Shack. He told me to have him come in asap and they could really use him in their repair dept and their sales dept. I went home and told Billy and he never went back to talk to them. He put an application in online. He just refuses to go talk to anyone face to face. His answer is you cant go in and get a job anymore without doing the online applications. Well that sure doesnt seem true if people are telling us to have him come in and talk to him. Maybe afterwards they might want him to do the application as a formality but that would be something he should wait to do until asked. Especially when we know people are asking him to come in and talk to them pronto. I simply dont think he wants to leave what he knows even if he doesnt like it.
  17. Hound dog

    Hound dog Nana's are Beautiful

    Janet, you and Tony need to drop this guilt trip with Billy. It's true all parents feel some level of guilt when there is something wrong with their child (even if it is totally unreasonable), so you just have to be firm with yourselves that you did the best you could with what you knew and the time and let it go.

    I couldn't begin to count the number of specialist Travis saw over the years. Now I even recognized the autism, although I knew he wasn't a true autistic, and it didn't help. He didn't get his offical diagnosis until the age of 14 for pete's sake. Much of the reason is because when he was small they didn't believe it was a spectrum disorder. Even when views changed, most docs were yet to be informed or knew too little about it.

    I spent a lifetime working on Travis' issues. Then in HS when he went to the tech school they had specific classes that addressed students social issues so they could coach them. Travis improved some but not very much even with all that. And to be frank, I don't know if he just matured beyond some of the behaviors or if all we did helped. Know what I mean?? So even if you had picked up on it early and managed to find a doctor to listen and then managed to get some help for him there is no way of knowing if it really would have made a difference.

    There is no reason Billy can't live on his own or at least make a major effort to at least attempt it before deciding that he can't handle the responsibility. However I've no doubt he can.

    Buck on the other hand is another matter all together. 1. He is NOT your child. 2. He is an adult who has managed to live this long on his own, somehow, someway. There is no reason for him to keep landing on your doorstep except that Tony is determine to enable him for whatever reason. It doesn't matter if Buck has a diagnosis or not. If he does I'm going to bet it has to do with some heavy duty partying days in his youth........and that is not your fault.

    Family helping family (and you know I'm big on this subject) does NOT mean let them mooch off of you until they bleed you dry.

    Blocking Buck's number will only be a temporary fix. Buck's not that stupid. He'll borrow someone's phone to call Tony eventually.

    Make good use of the time he is gone and try to show Tony how much nicer it was without Buck causing so much stress and drama.

  18. DammitJanet

    DammitJanet Well-Known Member Staff Member

    I agree with you lisa. I think I have an easier time with it because Billy makes up all these stories about when he was young that are simply not true but he tries to say they are. If you believed them, we were darned bad parents with him. According to him, we left him home alone to babysit Jamie and Cory when he was 10 -maybe 11 - and Cory shot him with a BB gun. Now everyone on here knows my stance on BB guns. We never had one. We also never left him alone to watch both boys. That would have been a disaster in the making. I could hardly leave them alone in the yard!

    He swears that this fish tank we had was outside and Cory shot it with the BB gun but we had been blaming him for it until Cory finally admitted it. The fish tank got broken in the house by a shoe getting thrown. Actually by me! He claims to remember all sorts of things that never happened.

    Then he starts in on how we just never had time to notice how miserable he was. Sigh.
  19. susiestar

    susiestar Roll With It

    Janet, there is a HUGE flaw in Billy's logic. If you did all the things he claims, why is he still having anything to do wtih you? If you were/are so horrible and awful, wouldn't he want to be as far from you as he could be? I wonder what he would say if you asked him that?

    Or you could be nice and tell him that since clearly you were not the parents he wanted/needed, he is free to move out using all the money he hasn't had to spend on rent, bills, food, etc... as hs nest egg. Give him a date and act like you know you were not what he wanted as parents, and you are setting him 'free' of you so he can finally be happy.

    I bet it is a total shock, lol.
  20. DammitJanet

    DammitJanet Well-Known Member Staff Member

    Problem with that one is he hasnt saved that money. He used to be a saver but I think he has helped out his girlfriend quite a bit. Plus he takes trips down to see her. I dont know what he has in the bank but I dont think it is much. He also has a bit of flawed logic in thinking that renting is a bad thing to do. He thinks you should always buy a home. I dont quite understand that one.

    One thing I am going to insist on is that when he gets his money from this accident is when he has to find a place to go. He should have enough to get into anywhere he wants. Heck, if he wants to buy a place he could probably do that.

    One thing that gets me though is that he still simply isnt willing to listen about how to get a job. I heard last night on TV about how Lowes is going to be hiring a lot of new employees and told him he needed to go get his foot in the door and his first idea was to hit the internet. I told him, no, go talk to them in person. Face to face is better. Go down there and make friends with someone who works there and get in that way. Networking is the best way to go every time.