thank you Midwest for your response, I totally agree, and understand it was natural for her to move on and when my daughter met her partner 6 yrs ago, I was not thrilled either, but I supported, accepted and respected her choice . I agree who she chooses is none of my business, and I accepted him without question. If you read the rest of my post, I think it shows that I have no problem detaching from her. I understand the need for things to change, and have always been willing to accept that change. The problem I think I had was trying to find what or where I fit into their new life. She met him in the January, and although we had contact regularly on the phone, that contact was limited to me asking how she was and her saying fine. I missed her and my granddaughter terribly, and told her often, but she never offered to visit or invited me to visit her. When I tried to make efforts to see them, she was always to busy. I accepted this, and it was only after I had not seen them, for about 3 months, that I decided I needed to do something. 3 months may not seem a long time, to many people, but when I had gone from seeing them, a minimum of twice a week, to not seeing them at all in 3 months. I felt this was to long. As adults we can handle 3 months, but to a 5 yr old child three months is a long time, to not see the person youd had such a lot of contact with. Also my granddaughter would ask me on the phone when I was going to see her, and I would tell her as soon as her mum sorts it out. It was only after the three months that I asked my daughter that if she is too busy to see me, then could she at least try and find some time, when I could see my granddaughter, and she agreed that I could have her for occasional weekend. I was thrilled with this, and looked forward to these times, which were fun. Even though it was fun, the only time I saw my daughter was briefly when she dropped her off and picked up my granddaughter. I did make efforts to have a little more contact with my daughter and suggested we go shopping, or maybe a coffee. These were always refused because she was to busy. It did hurt a little, that she could not find any time for me, but I accepted it. It was only a few months later that I felt the hurt again, when I discovered I had not been invited/informed about my granddaughters sports day. I asked my daughter why she had not let me know, and her response of I did not think you would want to go surprised me. I asked her why she would think that, when I had gone to all the previous school stuff, and she became angry with me accusing me of trying to cause an argument. I was very confused and hurt by this, but she would not discuss anything further. If she had let me know she did not want me there, I may not have liked it but I would have accepted it. That set the pattern for the future. Re the incident with the hair, my reason for asking her, was to try and find something we could do together. As you said, you would not ask your daughter, because you know she does not like it. That in my opinion is showing respect for your daughter. As for me, I was still trying to find where I fit into her life, and was trying to find things we might be able to do together. I did not know that my daughter would not like to help me with that, which is why I said in my previous post. A simple no would have been enough. If I am honest some of the problems arise out of the fact that I have no idea what any of my daughters likes or dislikes are, and she blocks any efforts I make to find out. This made it more difficult to find a place to fit in her life. And I found everything I tried, was rejected, and nearly always ended up with her getting angry at me for trying. The money issues has more or less petered out, and it is only a small amount when she asks. This is because I no longer have the means to support her as I did, and I suspect that this has something to do with why I dont fit into her life now, as there is nothing I have that she wants apart from the occasional babysitting, and the occasional loan of £10 here and there. I can understand and accept this, even though it hurts, but at least I would know where I fit. The reality is, I dont fit, and she wont acknowledge this, which in turn leads us into situations, whereby she will make excuses I will find out the excuse was not true, then I get upset and hurt, then she gets angry. You say deep in my heart I know she is not a nice person. There is some truth in this. She is not nice with me, but I know she is with others. She can find time for her granny, her father, and her partners parents, and others. Granted maybe not a lot and I guess they have something to give her. I know if I had the money and means to take her and the children out for the day, she would find the time for that. There is one issue that kept rearing its ugly head, I agree I dont have much I can give my daughter, other than time, but if I discover there is something I can give her that might be useful, or she has indicated she wants, then I will try to give her it. Her attitude towards me at these times I have to admit feel abusive. An example of this, when she visits her granny, she is always given something to take home with her. She accepts it graciously and then disposes of it in some way if she does not want it. She would occasional moan to me and say I wish granny would stop giving me junk, and I said if you want her to stop, then its up to you to tell her, to which my daughter replied no way it would upset her. This shows me, that my daughter has a clear understanding of the concept of accepting something to please the giver. For some reason I dont warrant the same consideration. She will not accept anything off me, that I offer, even if it is something she has indicated she wanted or needed. On one occasion she was moaning to me that her bath towels were shabby, but she could not afford to replace them. I thought oh I have half a dozen bath sheets that are still almost new, and I told her she could take 2 or 3 of those. These where towels that she had used when she used to visit me, its just now I was alone, they had been packed away. Her response was I dont want your towels, I want my own. The way she refused them I found hurtful. On another occasion I received a tin of Ratatouille that I had not ordered and would not use, so I suggested to my daughter that she take it home with her, to which she replied why would I want that. I pointed out how her partner ate vegetables and he may like to try it. At this point she started to get irritated with me, and said in an angry tone, your just like granny she keeps giving me stuff I dont want to which I replied no I am not, because with granny you accept graciously, so as not to hurt her, but with me you refuse, and dont seem to care if it will hurt me. her response to that was well stop offering me stuff I am sick of telling you I dont want anything . Needless to say I no longer offer her anything. she did ring me last night and I answered, and when she asked me had I got over sulking, I told her I had not been sulking, but that I was refusing her harsh behaviour towards me. We went round a bit in circles, but she did not scream and shout accusingly at me. It was clear that although it was calmer, there was still no willingness on her part to enter into any discussion to resolve things as she still saw it as I was wrong. it was based around her asking me to be a normal mum, and me asking her what a normal mum was in her eyes. She launched into what normal mums dont do like they dont sulk when they cant get their own way, and they dont upset their kids, when they have done nothing wrong, so I stopped her, and pointed out I had not asked what normal mums dont do, I had asked what do normal mums do, to which she replied your just playing with words. I could not get her to see, that I cannot be what she wants if I dont know what that is. The same process started when she told me I was not being fair to my grandson because I have not seen him in a month now. This is true but this is not downt to me not wanting to see him. Because I have a close relationship with my granddaughter , and she is now of an age whereby she is not dependent on her mum, to facilitate contact, she contacts me to ask if she can stay. As for my grandson, he is only 4 , so any contact has to be facilitated by his mum. I am sad to say I dont have a close relationship with my grandson, but this is because when he was younger , my daughter created a relationship with him that left no room for anyone else, and now that he is a little older, he does not want anyone but his mummy. Because we were going round in circles, I told my daughter that I miss my grandson and would love to see him, but if she wanted him to have grandparent input, then she had to find a way to facilitate that. She did try to carry the conversation on asking me to just be a normal mum/grandma, so I told her that as I did not know what she means by that, and clearly she does not understand how I feel, then I would maybe be better if I wrote to her , so she may gain a better understanding. The grief and pain she causes me, has now left no longer caring if she wants me in her life or not, because feel I dont want her in mine. I dont want to reject her, so I need to find a way that I can let her know that I will always be there for her, but I no longer want or need her to be there for me. This is not coming from anger, it is coming from the realisation that I dont fit in her life, and my efforts to find a place there, are causing me to much pain. So my next stage is to write to her. This will probably take me some, time to do, because I am scared that I may go the wrong way about this.